Gena continues her interview with Joel Turtel -

My interview with author Joel Turtel (Public Schools, Public Menace) started this morning - see the post below this one to get the first part. I'll be posting my questions and Joel's answers here every day (several per day) all this week. If you have any of your own questions or comments, please post them!

Gena: Joel, what about the "dumbing down" of schools everyone keeps talking about? I love John Taylor Gatto, who uses this term frequently in his books and when he talks to groups. Can you elaborate?

Joel Turtel: Many parents in suburban areas are fooled into thinking their children are getting an education up to “standards” because their kids come home with “good” test grades and report cards. Unfortunately, the academic standards today, even in “good” public schools, have been drastically dumbed-down, so these good test grades mean little.

       One of the reasons why public-school curriculums have been dumbed-down is because in many elementary schools today, even in “good” neighborhoods, the schools teach kids to read with a mostly whole-language reading instruction method (now called “balanced literacy instruction” or “language arts”). Balanced literacy instruction is mostly whole-language with a lit bit of phonics thrown in to assuage parents who complain that their kids are not learning to read in these schools. Whole-language instruction can literally cripple a child’s ability to read.

      Because children taught to read with this method become poor readers, schools must dumb-down the textbooks and tests to compensate for children’s poor reading skills. Many schools also engage in grade inflation or give kids higher marks than their work deserves, especially today because the No Child Left Behind law puts pressure on schools to show good grades for their students. So if the curriculum and tests are dumbed-down and there is grade inflation, so-called good grades mean nothing. Such grades do not reflect a child’s true reading and math abilities, even though the grades are up to “standards.”

       One thing I suggest to parents in “Public Schools, Public Menace” is to personally check their public-school’s true academic “standards” by having their child’s reading and math abilities tested by an outside independent testing company like Kaplan’s, Sylvan’s, or by one of the many testing companies on the Internet. Parents in a so-called “good” school may be shocked to find that their children’s true reading and math skills on these independent tests are far lower than what their “good” public school led them to believe from their child’s test scores and report-card grades.

Consider some additional facts. The average drop-out rate today in high schools is between 30 percent and 50 percent. Even in “better” neighborhoods, the average drop-out rate is still close to 30 percent for white children. What kind of academic “standard” does that imply? Would a parent  take her child on a commercial airline jet to visit relatives in another state if that airline company had a 30 percent failure rate—if 30 percent of their planes crashed before getting to their destination?

In considering academic “standards,” parents should also consider the issue of time. John Gatto was an English teacher who taught for over 20 years in the New York City public schools. He was awarded “Teacher of the Year” by both New York City and New York State. Mr. Gatto is also the author of many books about public schools and education. In his book, “Dumbing Us Down,” this experienced, award-winning English teacher and author said that it should only take about 100 hours to teach a willing and eager child how to read and do basic arithmetic. Let me repeat this—100 hours.

Gena: 100 hours! Seriously? Then why are schools forcing kids to supposedly "learn" in 12 years what should only take 100 hours?! We'll discuss more of this later tonight when we post part III of this fascinating chat. Thanks, Joel. See you later this evening. READERS: Let us know what you think so far. Any questions for Joel while we have him here? We want to hear from you. - gena

Comments

Jul. 17, 2006 - Untitled Comment

Posted by jayfromcleveland

As far as the example of Belgian students in the previous post, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these students also state-educated? We read that India and China will soon overtake us economically, and they are graduating over 12 times as many scientists and engineers as the USA. Aren't these students also publicly educated?

I'm wondering if the flaw is not with public education as a paradigm, but simply how it is currently administered in the US. My mother's public education in the 50s was superior to my own in the 70s, which was no doubt better than today. It seems that there has been much tinkering in the schools over the 20th century, with a stream of faddish pedagogic theories and whiney excuses for students' poor behavior and work ethic, where once upon a time, good old fashioned hard work was the expectation.

Meanwhile, though we are avid homeschoolers, I would respectfully submit that the jury is still out on homeschooling. We love to trumpet the success stories and spelling bee winners, but the under-achievers go unnoticed. The performance of homescholars is strictly a function of the parents and their expectations, as it has always been for school kids. It seems a homeschool student with an indulgent parent can goof off just as easily as a public kid, if not moreso, and produce just as inferior of an end-product. I'm not convinced that homeschooling per se is some panacea for the poor academic performance of the public schools.

Jul. 17, 2006 - Untitled Comment

Posted by jayfromcleveland

BTW, as for arithmetic, I recall how in 3rd grade, I was very slow in learning multiplication. The teacher had to eventually "move on," leaving me behind struggling, never quite getting the hang of the fundamental concepts. But in 4th grade, we killed a whole year with fractions and decimals. Then we took 5th grade off from math, and did review every other year til high school.

Then they unloaded algebra on us in 9th grade, and I had the same struggle all over. I couldnt grasp the concept of a variable, and soon the class moved on. I passed with a D minus because the teacher was too kind to fail me outright.

But I wanted a career in the sciences and needed to master math, so in the summer before senior year, I got an algebra book and taught myself, moving at my own rate and staying with the concepts until they sank in. I essentially "homeschooled" myself in algebra in 1978! It took me a year to finish the book and then I tested out of Algebra 095 at the college level. I took all my math through Calcuus at Community College and went on to get a BS degree in Physics -- no thanks to the public schools.

Anyway, our homeschool kids have been moving along consistently in math each year, and my 12yob just finished his first course in Algebra. He's tracking to take Calculus in 9th grade.

My point is, upon further consideration, I see a benefit of homeschooling as a paradigm in that students need not keep to some arbitrary herd schedule, where some fall behind and others are held back.

Also, the math textbooks are typically full of redundant material and fluffy examples that are never again encountered, academically or professionally. Surely there is disclipline in the exercise of useless examples, but I'm sure a streamlined course in math concepts can take a student through arithmetic, algebra, trigonometry and calculus in one thin volume.

Jul. 17, 2006 - My Two Cents...

Posted by TOSPUBLISHER

When I lived in California, Paul and I would occasionally visit Dr. Raymond Moore, who lived near us. He encouraged me so much on one of the visits. The man is 80 years old now, and has been around the world and back a number of times now, and has "seen it all" when it comes to public school education. He's done vast research on kids' intelligence and how that is affected just by being at home vs. institutionalized. He told me that the WORST homeschooling experience (basically, a kid not being very well directed, but at least being at home rather than forced to learn what the institutions deem "learning") is superior to the BEST public school experience. I think he was telling me to "relax" - that I needn't be so worried about not falling lockstep in line with the public schools (my kids were younger then). I have to say, I agree, based on what I've seen myself....and I'm nothing compared to him and his experience. But I've found that just the independence of it all - being allowed to stay unique instead of made a mere extension off the main group - is what's important here. John Taylor Gatto once told me that given a right environment, a child "will take his own education." Kids are born little sponges, and they generally stay that way if allowed to "stay human." They seek out their own way...and are hungry for knowledge, and will "grab up" their own education if they have to (do some research on our Founding Fathers - this is how many of them became so brilliant - they grabbed their own). I think that's why we get surprised so often by the "lowly unschooler" out there who outperforms everyone. Dr. Moore told me about a study once performed on the IQ levels of three groups: the public schooled student, the homeschooler (following a semi-rigid schedule) and the unschooler. I was shocked when he said that the homeschoolers had a higher IQ than the public schoolers in the study - but the unschoolers beat them all. I don't know what to make of that - again, I'm only sharing what Dr. Moore told me, but I do find it all fascinating. And it only re-affirms to me that public schools are NOT an option.

The bigger issue though is the spiritual one. We as parents are mandated by God to raise our kids up in a way they should go. To train them in His word. To develop character in our children. To teach them logic, understanding, Truth. How can we do that if we are sending them off into an R-rated movie set all day long, year after year? It's not going to work. Most abandon their faith in the end. So yes, you're going to have the goof-off homeschool parent or kid; we'd be silly and naive to suggest it doesn't happen. But that's why we have studies and statistics. They're glaring. Homeschoolers do better.

Jul. 17, 2006 - Untitled Comment

Posted by jayfromcleveland

Gena, you know I don't disagree with you, but I'd be interested in reading up on some of these studies and statistics. Where does one find these? I once crawled through the HSLDA site and couldn't find anything. Maybe I should do it again?

But we all know what Mark Twain said -- "There are lies, *darn* lies, and statistics"! Since we live in a dark age of scientific authority, one establishes one's point by applying a scientific veneer, but these studies are usually biased and self-serving anyway. I've heard my public teacher friends refer to some unseen, uncited studies that show homeschoolers scaping the bottom. Our side would play "dueling statistics" and throw out our own set of numbers.

Anyway, in my opinion, there is enough "anecdotal evidence" in favor of homeschooling to convince me that it is a viable approach. -j

Jul. 17, 2006 - Untitled Comment

Posted by eyecorn

My question is a bit off-topic from the previous posts...

Do you have any statistics or information regarding the number of teachers who teach "out-of-topic"...for example, chemistry teachers/major who are teaching history.

One argument I hear (more and more as our son approaches high school) from the very vocal anti-homeschool crowd among family and friends is that my husband and I are not qualified to teach algebra or science...since we do not have a degree in these areas. Or, that we think "we are smarter than the teachers and can do a better job".

Thank you and I look forward to reading (and re-reading) the interview entries.
Michelle

Jul. 17, 2006 - Untitled Comment

Posted by TOSPUBLISHER

You have a point, Jay. Like I said, those were "hearsay" stats and studies. But from Dr. Raymond Moore, they carry some weight (for me, anyway). Would I write an article based on that alone? Doubtful. Reading Dr. Brian Ray, however, who has crunched all the big numbers, has further convinced me that homeschoolers do better. Check it out:

http://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/HomeschoolingGrowsUp.pdf

- gena

TOS Publisher