Thursday, May 31, 2007
Chapters 56-60 - Discussion!!
Posted in Ishmael by E.D.E.N Southworth
So we are getting close to the end of the book. Are you excited to see what happens?
Did you all find it interesting that it was Reuben and Hannah who had the children? I thought that was clever of Mrs. Southworth. Why use extra characters! :+) I also found the change in Reuben towards Ishmael to be somewhat of a puzzle. Did Reuben really think so little of Ishmael? He was Uncle Reuben before he was a lawyer - what would change for Ishmael? Does Reuben just "know his place"? What does Ishmael mean by his response to Reuben? "I am very anxious to advance myself in the world, very ambitious of distinction; but if I thought worldly success would or could estrange me from the friends of my boyhood, I would cease to wish for it." I loved that he did not in any way disown Reuben, but what about the first part? Why do you think he wishes distinction? Is that a good thing?
I thought the whole trial scene was very interesting, didn't you? It seems so different, yet not so much from our own day! The circus atmosphere of the other lawyers was almost too much, but how much worse is it in our own day! "If the glove don't fit you must acquit!" That certainly was a modern circus trial! I really loved how Ishmael defended the mother--he told the truth. How fearful that mother must have been! She could have lost her children to a very unworthy man.
What did you think about Ishmael's summation of the joking lawyer? "Take human nature in general; it can be more easily laughed than reasoned or persuaded in or out of any measure. People would rather laugh than weep or reflect." Those are powerfully true words!! I also love the way she wrote that first sentence. It was written like a song almost.
What did you think of this statement:
"That a lie which is half a truth, is ever the blackest of lies,
That a lie which is all a lie may be met and fought with outright;
But a lie which is part a truth, is a harder matter to fight."
And then we have Miss Merlin's "...anguish of longing that she knew her pride must forever deny..." She very much loves him, but her pride will not allow her to acknowledge it. Here even in his triumph he is, in her eyes, a man without proper parents so he is not to be considered. At least she feels it! Will it change, you think, before the end of the book?
Mr. Brudenell is back on the scene! Did the situation his mother and sisters placed him in surprise you? It was not all that shocking to me. Sad yes, but not too surprising considering their attitudes towards other things. They were on show in Europe, but there form without substance--and money!
So father and son meet. Can you only imagine what went through Herman's mind? "Now the frozen love of years melted and flowes into one strong, impetuous stream towards him--her son--his son! Oh, that he might dare to claim him!" What does this mean? Will Herman again be impetuous to Ishmael's ruin? he has already fought so hard to overcome his place in society. How will Herman fit into it?
I enjoyed the whole tête-à-tête between Herman and Hannah! Couldn't you just see her boiling over and he trying to contain her temper! It was quite comical to me. Could you imagine a man not too much younger than yourself calling you an old woman? Towards the end of their encounter, I did feel a bit of sadness for poor Herman. He really did himself in by his impatience! This last line touched me, "And as he walked thither, how he envied humble Reuben Gray his parental happiness!" I would envy it too had I been in Herman's place.
Drum roll, please! Now you can finish the book! We are going to read all the way through to the end. A *lot* happens in these next few chapters....
Oh, and don't forget to order Self Raised, with free shipping! We will be starting that almost as soon as we finish Ishmael!
We hope to see you in the comments--we hope!! :+)
Comments
Thursday, May 31, 2007 - Untitled Comment
Posted by JenIG
forgive my slackerality -- we are waaaaaaaaaay behind. however, since i have already read the book, i remember these chapters and i was pleasantly surprised with how the book and even the tone of the book seemed to change. I am reading several other Southworth books and they do the same. I highly recommend , The Lost Heir of Lithlingow and its sequel, A Noble Lord.
You can get a glimpse of Southworth's sympathy for the poor, for those with no rights, and for the injustice that happens within society during her time period. I wonder if she was an activist. I don't know, but it seems from her books, that she understands the need for a Saviour and for His grace. I sure hope she trusted in Him and that I will be able to hang out with her in heaven.
Sorry again for dropping the ball, my friends. And thank you, my gracious Kate for putting together the last two weeks worth without a single stitch of help
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Thursday, May 31, 2007 - Untitled Comment
Posted by andijeane
I thought that the twist of the Grays having the children was great! It was so in character of them to help with the children, but it was also a bit of comic relief.
I do think that Reuben just "knew his place" in the way he behaved to Ishmael after his success. Yes, it was worldly success, and he probably hoped it didn't change his character, but I likened the scene to Reuben going to the end of the table and letting Ishmael decide whether or not to bring Reuben up beside him (if that makes sense). Reuben's actions were definitely in character with the humility he always expresses.
It seems that one of the main themes running through the book since Ishmael discovered his parentage is his desire to bring honor to his mother's name. I think that is the main reason he desires distinction. However, Southworth seemed to make it clear in the last set of chapters that his less noble reason is to win Claudia.
Kate, I definitely agree with you about the joking lawyer statement. The same with the half truth statement. That is so true! We are much more easily deceived by statements that have an element of truth in them.
If Claudia is still resisting her love for Ishmael at this point, I have to wonder if she will ever change. What if she does, though? I wonder if she would really be happy with him, or would she regret her lack of title (or whatever it is she is after). Until she is at peace with herself by being at peace with God through Jesus Christ, she isn't going to be truly happy and will always be looking outside herself to fulfill her temporal happiness. Would she really make Ishmael a good wife at this point?
I can't say I was surprised by Mrs. Brudenell and her daughters, but I was beginning to wonder if we were ever going to hear of the Brudenells again before the end of the book! I hope Herman doesn't do anything that would injure his son after all of his success.
I enjoyed Herman and Hannah's exchange too. Hannah didn't spare herself either! She admitted her mistakes.
You really want to like Herman and feel sorry for him, but he is such a self-absorbed character. He knew that Hannah never used his check, but not once did he attempt to find out how his son was doing! Do you think it was an "out of sight, out of mind" type situation? Or was Herman just so busy feeling sorry for himself that he didn't have time to think of anyone else? I wonder what he was doing all the time he was out of the country.
~Andrea
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Thursday, May 31, 2007 - Untitled Comment
Posted by BlessingsFromAbove
I agree with Andreayou really do want to like Herman. I couldnt believe that I was actually thinking that as I read how he helped his mother and sisters all those years. Yes, I actually thought poor Herman! Then, when Herman first caught site of Ishmael, the words Those were Noras lips, so beautiful in form, color, and expression, it all just came backthat summer Herman and Nora spent together, Nora completely trusting him, and then Nora getting reamed out by Mrs. Brudenell while Herman spent the evening visiting with his friends. I couldnt believe that I actually forgot about how he completely abandoned her! Even though he made all those horrible choices, I believe that he now regrets them. He stood by his mother all these years, and where has that gotten him? Nowhere. But, with Ishmael, if he would have stood by HIS side, look at the happiness he would be experiencing now. It will be interesting to see how all this works out, but I really dont think that Herman is going to come out with the truthit would make him look like such I jerk. I think he will just try to be friends with Ishmael. We shall see if I am right! .
And thanks, Kate, for the comment back to me about Claudia. I must admit that I am a little slow at times! It is now crystal clear to me as evidenced when everyone was congratulating Ishmael on his victory. Here was Ishmael, proving to the world his real power and worth. He would have been accepted by anyone else as a gentleman, but just not by Claudia. How she has closed the door on herself. Its a shame, but between Claudia and Bee, I would much rather see Bee win the heart of Ishmael! I think it is just a tad too close to the end of this book for that to happen, but we shall see! I have a feeling that Self-Raised is an even better book than this one because Southworth re-uses her characters, and Ill bet that many of these characters will be coming back!
Another thing that I see as inspiring is that Ishmael holds no resentment over not having a father. He loves his mother through what Hannah has told him, but resentment over anything else is just not there. I think that is greathe seems to have just let it go. Sometimes I struggle with letting go when a family member has hurt me or said something totally rude. I do eventually let it go and forgive, but certainly not as quickly as I should.
Michele
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Friday, June 1, 2007 - Untitled Comment
Posted by thisworldisnotmyhome
I feel sorry for Herman as well-he seems to be a lot like Claudia in the fact that he can't seem to find true joy. He was caught up in the 'social standings' of people as well, although I don't believe as much as Claudia. I, too, believe he is now regretting his decisions about Nora and such. Perhaps Nora would still be around had Herman not broken her heart?
But then again, maybe Ishmael wouldn't be who he is today had he grown up in luxury. He wouldn't have had the compassion on the poor that he has because of where he came from. All these things in his life-the childhood, the poverty-all were shaping influences in his life. Without these would he have been the same person with the same amount of character? Ishmael grew in character not just despite his situation, but because of his situation as well.
Oh, if we could be like that! All things happen for our sakes, so that God can be glorified through them. What a wonderful example Ishmael is to that.
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Friday, June 1, 2007 - <i>Untitled Comment</i>
Posted by thisworldisnotmyhome
Here is a side note...anyone know that they made a movie about this book? I was googling Ishmael Worth, and came up with this link.
http://www.answers.com/topic/hearts-of-youth
It is interesting that in the movie his love interest is Beatrice....anyone know where someone could get a copy of the movie? It would be great to see the differences....
Edited: Its apparently a silent film from 1921...it still would be interesting...
Edited by thisworldisnotmyhome on Jun. 1, 2007 at 12:03 PM
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Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - Untitled Comment
Posted by kympossible
What a wonderful surprise to have Reuben and Hannah looking after those little girls!
I was quite puzzled that Reuben's attitude towards Ishmael was so obviously changed. His referring to Ishmael as "sir" over and over and over again... I didn't think that was realistic, personally. But it came as no surprise at all that Ishmael felt that nothing in their relationship had changed as a result of his own recent successes.
The statements about human nature being more willing to laugh than to weep, and that lies based in truth are the hardest to fight - both so very true. Perhaps even more so in our day than at the time Southworth wrote the book.
I'm anxious to keep reading and find out what might happen now that Herman knows what has become of his child! I like how Andrea worded it - I want to like Herman but his desire to always please others is really a form of self-indulgence and cowardice. I like that he has not revealed his relationship to Ishmael to anyone (yet, I suppose I should say, because I haven't read to the end!) because at least he is taking time to consider what the consequences might be. Whether he is considering consequences to Ishmael or to himself remains to be seen.
Blessings,
Kym
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Wednesday, June 6, 2007 - Untitled Comment
Posted by debbiecorley
Hello! Well, I stopped to wait for everyone to catch up.... and now I'm way back at chapter 18! I completely lost steam! I will try to plow ahead in order to finish Ishmael with you, and be ready to begin the next book.
P.S. I've been reading Southworth's book The Hidden Hand (while I wait..ha). It is very good.
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