Saturday, August 4, 2007
Chapters 4-8 ~ Discussion!
Posted in Self-Raised by E.D.E.N Southworth
Here's the post! It is just a bit later than I had anticipated, but here it is none the less! :+)
So we have finally begun to see the love between Ishmael and our dearly loved Bee! How exciting! Let's begin with his conversation with Mr. Middleton. Didn't your heart warm to the affectionate manner between them? Oh, I thought, if all in-law relationships were this beautiful (and some are, I know) what would our world look like? I just loved that Mr. Middleton believed Ishmael long ago and that the whole family looked upon him as a son. It was very precious.
Then came the garden conversation with Bee. I also thought it most appropriate that he chose that place to declare himself to her--his place of humbling turned into his place of rejoicing. I really thought that whole exchange was just lovely. But how do you think you would have responded to Ishmael's declaration if you had been Bee just weeks after Claudia's marriage? OK, we know that Ishmael does not say what he does not truly believe, but the idea of being a rebound would likely occur to me if I was in her place. Perhaps that is thinking "this-worldly" and not trusting in the heart of Ishmael? Her concern was justified I thought, but his answer was very sweet. She really is all he needs for a wife I think. :+) I think he is truly in earnest, but it would still be on my mind. Claudia is not exactly someone easily forgotten. What do you think?
So Reuben is finally in on the secret! Poor guy - it must have been a relief to him to know all the details even though his kind heart did not require them. I really like Reuben. He has always been kindness itself to Ishmael. I wonder how different Ishmael's life would have been had Reuben been in it from an earlier time. But that was not the story, was it? :+)
Ishmael gets to meet the pastor that married his parents. Were you surprised that he did not ask any questions? I would have wanted to know so much - but maybe that is the "details-oriented" kind of part of a woman in me? Ishmael did not even ask a single question! It was a nice meeting though - and it must have been special for Ishmael to meet a person that did not question his lineage and who knew the attempted rightness of their union.
And then they return home to .... Claudia! What did you think of Ishmael's reaction to the knowledge she was there? I thought it was wise that he did not speak with her - fleeing from the temptation really is what he was doing to some degree. She also avoided seeing him. Why do you think she did that?
So what is going on with Claudia and her husband? Who is the mysterious dark woman?? That is sincerely strange. The judge speaks my thoughts on this, "But how coolly and dispassionately you speak of an uncertainty that would drive any other woman almost mad! At this moment you do not know whether you are abandoned or not, and to be candid with you, you do not seem to care!" It is really evident here that she does not in any remote manner love him. (Not that we had any doubts about that, but still!) I would think in her "exalted" place she would care about the slight that it would be, but she does not seem to care for anything save her title!!
I feel for the poor Judge, don't you? Even though he is paying for his lack of parenting in the choices he allowed his daughter to make, I still feel for his loneliness. He seems destitute. I thought it was wonderful that Ishmael was there for him even though there is no possibility that he will be his "true son" as the Judge called him. Ishmael is a true friend to him. How must the Judge rue the day he allowed his daughter to go her own way!
I loved the time Ishmael spent with Bee - enjoying her family and enjoying her. It is so nice to see Bee appreciated by the one man she wished to have love her!
So now what do you think?? I am already immensely enjoying this book. What about you? Thanks for your patience with me. This last few weeks have been hard here and I appreciate all the kindness extended to me. :+)
For next week, please read Chapters 9-12.
Comments
Friday, August 10, 2007 - I'll catch up again!
Posted by kympossible
I got partway through these chapters and then took a break while we were on vacation earlier this week. I will finish up tonight though and comment!
Blessings,
Kym
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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - Untitled Comment
Posted by kympossible
When Ishmael declared himself to Bee, yes I absolutely wondered if she would be concerned about being the "rebound" Then again, Ishmael is never anything less than truthful, which Bee knows as well as we do. And Bee was quite aware of Ishmael's feelings for Claudia, so I think it would have rung false with her if he had not said anything about it. She knew exactly what the situation was, and I think she probably also believed that the feelings Ishmael had for Claudia were not "true love" Bee will indeed make a wonderful wife for Ishmael.
I applauded Ishmael for making a quick getaway when he realized Claudia was awaiting the judge! Good for him! I believe he was wisely fleeing temptation, but I think Claudia avoided him because she was perhaps somewhat ashamed of what had come of her choices. I find it hard to feel sorry for Claudia now, especially because she declared so clearly to Bee prior to the wedding that she loathed the Viscount and truly was marrying only for the prestige of the title. And I don't think she had any illusions that he was in love with her either, I'm sure she knew that he was looking for a "trophy wife" (maybe she didn't realize the very real probability that he wanted her for the large dowry that was settled upon her, but she seems worldly enough to have considered that possibility as well) It does seem a little odd that she hasn't thought of the insult to her person that her husband's actions may cause. How long will she be content with her wonderful title and nothing else, I wonder.
I agree, the judge is a character that I am sympathetic with. A man of great wisdom, it would seem, and yet he made poor choices in not setting boundaries and teaching better character to his daughter.
Off to read the next chapters!
Blessings,
Kym
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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - Untitled Comment
Posted by thisworldisnotmyhome
I too, feel for the Judge. What a reminder to us when we are tempted to give our children independence before they are ready.
I would have to say that Hannah is quite annoying to me in this book. I think she is mean to Rueben. Her comments always make him look dumb-not that he is the brightest one, but he sure tries. How much patience he has with her. I don't think MY husband would appreciate it if I talked to him like Hannah talks to Rueben.
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Thursday, August 16, 2007 - Hello, ladies!
Posted by hsbliteraryclub
Kym,
"Then again, Ishmael is never anything less than truthful, which Bee knows as well as we do."
Yes, I was thinking this too. Still, it has to sting a bit I think. We want to be our true love's only, right? Sigh. Life does not always give us that.
"I applauded Ishmael for making a quick getaway when he realized Claudia was awaiting the judge!"
I totally agree with you!! Flee from that temptation! :+) Yes, I also find it hard to feel sorry for Claudia because she has made her bed, so to speak, but still, I think she has little concept of what that title will cost her. I cannot *imagine* spending my life married to a man I didn't love!
thisworldisnotmyhome, I think we are all in agreement with the poor judge. I hope things get better for him. Not that he can change the past, but I hope he can not feel so bereft of his child.
You also made me laugh about Hannah. I do think she is pretty annoying but she pretty much has stayed true to character all the way through! LOL She does not seem to have softened very much since being married. I think the harshness of her situation stayed with her - even when things were no longer harsh. Perhaps that shaped her. I can understand that a little bit. And Reuben never seems to mind her one bit. I guess that shows you we all give and take in a relationship. I can tell you I am not always the kindest wife. Sigh.
Thank God we can continue to work on it, right? :+)
Warmly,
Kate
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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - Better late than never, I hope!
Posted by andijeane
Sorry about being so lax with the comments on this book! I'll try to do better about keeping up - I missed the first discussion.
I was really happy when Ishmael "came to himself" and realized how perfect Bee would be for a wife. I admire him for not waiting even though it might look like rebound to others. They have such a strong friendship that I think it will help Bee trust his love.
I also loved the conversation with Mr. Middleton. Even though Ishmael has raised himself in the world, it had to be so gratifying to know that there was someone who trusted him even when circumstances weren't in his favor for that time period.
Reuben is one of my favorite characters in this book. He is so simple, yet so honest, loving and wise. Simple yet wise; it almost seems like a paradox, doesn't it? He really embodies being wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove.
I think Ishmael was very wise to free from temptation. I think that he was also being considerate (so like him) because it was obvious that she wasn't expected yet and he probably figured out that something must not be right. I think that Claudia was probably embarrassed and ashamed too. Maybe she didn't want to go through the internal struggle of seeing Ishmael either. I don't think her motives were the same as his, though. I think that he was legitimately fleeing temptation, whereas she just didn't want to look bad in front of him.
I feel for the judge too. It must have been very hard for a man back then to raise a child by himself, especially since he was in such a powerful position. It's sad that the Middletons weren't able to have more influence on Claudia's character. Southworth does such a good job setting Claudia and Bee up as antitheses of each other.
Hannah and Reuben are a pretty unique couple. It does seem like her difficulties in life have made her pretty snappish. I believe Southworth mentioned that even at the beginning of the first book, and that was before her worst troubles. Reuben really seems to understand Hannah thoroughly, though. Although she can be quite mean at times, I do enjoy their interaction just because they have such a good understanding - I'm not sure if that makes sense.
~Andrea
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