Clearly, leading this discussion is not a piece of cake, as it might seem (I am speaking of my own former opinion). I am really loving this book and all of its intricate facets, but there are so many more things I want to do with it than just have a discussion about it. I want to absorb it and live it and learn from it. I did not get to make up discussion questions as you asked Jeannie, but I know we are tardy in getting up the discussion, so we wanted to get this posted. I am planning to take some of the questions below and make up a page for you though. Thanks everyone, for your patience!
Blessings, Jacque
Discussion The Hedge of Thorns, Chapters 4-6
(Jacque) We left our reading with John's father and mother sitting holding poor little Bell and John feeling worse than he ever has, probably in his entire life. He has had to hold the 'fruit' of his sin in his own hand, as Bell lie there, injured and scarred for life. John was so ashamed and scared for her.
The next chapter brings a new morning. It brings John's father's gentle hand taking John to the very spot he so selfishly pushed Bell into the hedge. Walking lovingly with him and talking with him about his sin. As a parent, I admire the loving response he has for his son, in spite of the trauma this 9 year-old has caused by his disobedience. He is only a little boy, but having a ten-year-old, I realize that John knew what he was doing - his disobedience. He just had no thoughts of the consequences.
I am amazed at the gentleness and encouraged at how he reminded John of the WORD and its place in this horrible situation. I loved the example to walk with our children and talk with them, reminding them of God's promises and His mercies and even His salvation. His father told him a very important concept: God had interfered.
(p. 35) Another important concept was that God puts certain hedges of thorns in our lives. He said, "Our heavenly Father, having pity on His poor creatures, and provided for them a means of salvation, disposes their affairs in life in that way which he sees will best work towards the attainment of this blessed purpose, that is, their salvation; He knows the way they ought to go, and He puts, as it were, a hedge on this side and on that side, to keep them on the path of righteousness. Some are hedged in by careful and vigilant paarents, some by strict or hard masters, some by sickness, some by poverty, some by dying friends, some by unkind relations, some by frowns of the world, and some by infirmities of their own minds." (pp. 39-40)
He goes on to say that he could not count half of the ways by which the Father keeps His people from sin. Wow. I am in awe by that thought. Having experienced some of those 'hedges' in my own life, it is an eye-opening spiritual thought that blew away all previous theories that we must prayer these bad circumstances out of our lives. Clearly in this spiritual interpertation his father is telling him that "bad things" that happen are sometimes or most usually a hedge of thorns-God's protective way of keeping us at that point in our lives. It also made me think of Paul's thorn in the flesh. I am not sure of the acurate interpertation how this fits into his thorn in the flesh. It also makes me realize that when I feel helpless in a situation that is all wrong I have to look at it that way. Is it a hedge of thorns? Is it something to pray away or is it something God has intentionally put there to keep me in His path. His father's words of advice were, "Do not ever attempt to break through those hedges God grows, my boy, and you will never feel their thorns."
(Amanda) I really like the 3 points the Father talks about. I think alot of us don't really realize the hedges that everyone has over them in reference to these that he is speaking of. It is important to remember that tho he was only 9, John really did have a sense of being more mature than his age. These words stuck in his mind for the rest of his life, and he remembered them very well. Just like John, I think we all have times when our immaturity takes over and we do stupid things because we don't use our full vision to see what lays ahead.
"Thorns and snares are in the way of the perverse; he who guards his soul will be far from them." Proverbs 22:5
(Jacque) What did you envision on the other side of the hedge? In my mind, I had envisioned a long steep drop. It still horrified me to read that that is what was Bell's fate if John had continued on his reckless path. One thing I never thought about why that hedge would be there. I guess it makes sense that it didn't just grow there, someone put it there. what did you make of the story of how it got there? To me, it was sad that those two children lost their lives, but it also served as a sacrifice for those the hedge would protect, also.
(Amanda) Is what you thought would be on the other side of the hedge what it was? Did you think that it would be a safe thing or a dangerous one? Personally, I figured that it would be a cliff or something to the sort.
Isn't that how it always is? Our hedges of thorns may be a troublesome thing for a "season", but eventually they will turn out to be just what we need. In John's instance, his hedge would give him coolness in the summer and protection from the rain.
I think God allows some mistakes to leave scars that we have to look upon daily as a constant reminder of a specific lesson that He wants us to remember. Something that, maybe, we will continue to struggle with.
(Jacque) On another note, His father also added about the hedges that, ' "Moreover my son," he added, "when the summer comes, the hedges, if you walk by their side, will afford you a refreshing shelter from the heat of the sun; although they now look so brown and withered, they may then blossom with fragrant hawthorn, and honeysuckle and wild roses." ' (p. 51) This picture that his father painted of the safety and aromatic nature of these prickly, hated thorn bushes is not what we picture in our own lives either, when storms come our way that we view as negative. It shows that their is beauty and comfort in the ugliness.
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly." Psalm 1:1
(Amanda) Do you think that maybe they are giving John to much freedom as a 15 year old?? Obviously times were different back then, and he seems to be a good boy, but there is still that spirit of" I am going to get through these thorns" and I don't understand why his parents can't see that. His father is very much in his life, but I can tell that there are to be many more instances like the breaking through of the hedge that is very soon going to happen in John's life. Sensing his demeanor of independecy, I think giving the kid his own "apartment" was not the right thing to do. Most children stray from the path which they have been set on for personal desires, and we must make sure that they are fully on the path before we let them on their own.
(Jacque) I think it is a delicate discernment for John's father to give him responsibility and also keep an eye on his heart. Note that John "left school and went out to work with my father,"(p. 52) so, John's father is training John and spending a lot of time getting to know him. He can only teach him what he must, the rest is up to John to live by.
John said his father "had taught me to admire everything that is lovely in the works of God"... and entering John's apartment (room), "his eyes brightened with pleasure," (p.53) but, upon seeing all of the comforts John had afforded himself and the view he set his heart toward, his father aslo cautioned him, "My dear son, the Lord has afforded you many comfotable blessings. Enjoy them and give thanks, but never forget the lessons of the hedge of thorns, and all I said to you upon that subject." He goes on to tell his how sweet it is that his children are walking within God's providence, and then instructs him of his future happiness, to "sanctify it to God; seek to do His whole will in it." (pp.54-55)
It is little surprise that the cares of the world have again tempted John. Is it his youthful impetuousness that keeps him desiring things outside of his own world? He admitted that his religioous learning was "yet rather in my head than in my heart." (p. 53) Do you feel that his schooling and getting to know others in his class had anything to do with these desires? Seeing what others had, listening to their dreams and desires, did that shape him ? I remember that he said of his Governess and the other children in his class, "She knew the corruption of children, and set her whole heart, with God's help, to do what she could to overcome it; but her pupils, not having the same views as their faithful teacher, of course thought her too strict. They could not feel the necessity of the restraint under which they were frequently laid, and they naturally revolted at it." (p.23) As a homeschool mom, can you relate to this? I do. As a mom who is concerned with shaping character, I completely understand this. What bothers me is that these are the children with whom John and Bell are spending almost their entire days.
Interestingly enough, on page 56, John closes Chapter 6 by saying, "These words of my father fixed themselves, by God's blessing, in my memory, but did not yet reach my heart; and for this reason, I had formed plans of happiness quite different from those which he had pointed out to me."
He says that at this point "he was impatient with the gentle control his parents exercised over him," which means that we will be seeing further lessons for John in God's protective hedges.
DISCUSSION: NOTE: Please feel free to post your discussion here in the comments section. Post it on your blog too, by all means, but it will be easier to discuss it right here on this blog. The discussion will be great in the comments section.
In reading chapters 4 and 5, I could not imagine the restraint the author's father showed. Father and son walked out to the hedge all the while discussing the beauty of God's work in each of our lives. You can see very plainly that regardless of how distraught he may be, the father sees that what happened was allowed by God to better his son. Could I be so full of compassion and mercy to see that? I would like to say yes, but I know deep down, I could not be.
I loved how the father took the time to explain things and then allowed John to experience understanding. So many times we tell our children things and then try to make them understand, instead of allowing experience to teach them. He showed such patience in waiting on his son's understanding. You could feel that he realized the gravity of this lesson.
The picture story that helped us to understand the relevance of the hedge was wonderful. I never thought about the fact that God may build a hedge around us out of the things we may despise the most. I always used to say, "God did not make me rich because He knew I could not handle it." I am probably more right than I ever thought!
There was so much in these two chapters. My Oldest and I read it separately and then discussed it. I enjoyed that. We really delved into the analogy of the thorns on the rose. Thinking of the thorns as a blessing to the rose was something that never occurred to either of us.
I read chapter 6 today. I have not had a lot of time to ponder it, but in reading your discussion, it made me think of something. John was "hedged in" by the fact that he was with his father. The conversation that his father had with him to always mind the hedge was possibly an indication that he could see the direction of his son's thoughts. As much as we try to hide our character from others, we usually only trick ourselves. John was playing the man by working with his father, but he still had a lot to learn. It appears to me that his father understood that.
Okay, I will stop adding and see what else I find in Chapter 7!!
Chapter 4 is like a beautiful sermon. When I read it out loud to my children I read it slowly and carefully and even re-read some passages. Then, we stopped to discuss several points. I didn't want them to miss a thing and yet I sensed they did not fully grasp it just as John, by his own admission, did not fully understand everything his father was saying to him at the time.
I marvelled at the use of the terminology... "He interferes for our salvation..."
The word interferes caught my attention. God interferes in our lives to gain our hearts. Would that He would catch me in any wrong doing and interfere in my life each day, so that I WILL realize when I am in that proverbial "burning building"!
I was glad that it was clarified that we cannot be saved by anything external... whether the circumstances around us or the works of our own hands, but that those externals can effect us to our very core... even to the point of chosing salvation or denying Christ.
"... every little outward event and circumstance of a man's life is ordered by God for his good, as seen in the cases of those who humbly sumit themselves to the will of their heavenly Father..."
This is JUST what God has been speaking to my heart over and over and over. It was just another confirmation of this truth to me.
I was not surprised by the definition of the hedge of thorns as circumstances (even bad) that keep us on the safe path, but I did wonder at the inclusion of "infirmities of their own minds". I suppose this could be interpreted many ways, but it made me think of the battlefield of the mind.... oh how well I know of it!
In Chapter 7 it did surprise me that the source of John's temptation (or at least what caused a stumblingblock for him) occured in the church meeting. But then again, that really should not have surprised me as it has been my own experience to begin to covet others possessions and positions in my own pew. Anywhere our mind is, the battle can easily ensue!
I was glad there was finally some mention of John's mother's virtues in this chapter. He had been largely silent where she was concerned up until this point. It actually bothered me a bit until I remembered that I have heard/read that up until more recent history fathers did the bulk of the child training. And John's mother was not, as he put it, "learned", but she was supportive, prayerful, wise, faithful, obedient and tender to the things of the Lord. She was apparently "revered" by those who knew her and what a tragedy for John and Bell to lose both of their parents in such short order. This "thorn" both kept him on the path and gave him cause to struggle against the thorns once more.
(Even though he was already struggling before this, sometimes difficulties resurrect our own darknesses that we have not fully surrendered unto God.)
When I read this to my children the four of us (the little ones were not home at the time, but I plan to read this to them later) all began to discuss our thorns and we began to weep.
I asked their forgiveness for some of my word choices and attitudes towards them when I am frustrated and they, too, admitted some of their struggles and we all talked about the need to uplift and encourage one another to stay on the path and to trust God in adversity.
If my Saviour would wear a thorn of crowns for me, than how can I possibly fail to see that a hedge of thorns may well be for my benefit just as the thorn in Paul's side kept him humble and reliant upon God.
But may we also be leary of the thorn that would choke the seed of the word of the gospel. Let us accept the thorns as a guard rail and let us not press into said thorns in lust for what may lie beyond.
In chapter 4, I'm immediately impressed with Father's actions and demeanor. Though the author doesn't say so, I feel that he must have been praying, asking God for the right words to say to his son. Both father and son are obviously broken-hearted over what has happened to sweet little Bell, and I believe this common ground of brokeness is what sets the stage for Father's spirit filled-words of wisdom.
I'm awed by the apparent calmness and certain deliberateness with which Father silently leads John to the 'scene of the sin.' He knows what has to be taught, and he gently delivers the message - making sure that he doesn't go on until,"...he had made me (John) understand so far." (Oh, that I would have Father's gentleness, wisdom, patience...and grace....to stay with the teachings each step of the way until my young ones completely understand.)
How insightful to explain God's plans for us as His "interfering." In my thesaurus, the word listed as a synonym for interfere is intercede....literally, to move or pass between. How awesome to think of God interceding on our behalf by putting up hedges to keep us where we need to be.
I liked, too, how John's Father pointed out the positive side of have the hedge - how it would provide shade and sweet blossoms in the summer. That made me think about how we often refer to our Christian walk as being on a narrow path and how that is sometimes seen as a negative. Yet really, that narrow path is a pleasant path when we stay on it as we should. We have the benefits of His protection and His blessings along the way - and those are much more rewarding that any sin off of the path could ever be.
I understand completely how John could say that his religion was in his head and not his heart. I've experienced that! It isn't a good place to be, and one that leaves you open to temptation in a big way. That is apparently what is about to happen to John as he starts to feel discontent with where he is and starts comparing himself to others. A wise person who was a mentor to me in my early years of homeschooling used to say, "Comparison is the death of contentment." Very true.
In chapter 7, John's "heavenly hedge" is taken away. From the 'prodigal' thoughts that John has already had running around in his head, it's obvious that he's about to get into some sort of sin. I have an idea what thorny hedges the Lord may put up for him when that happens, but I'll have to keep reading! :-)
Oh my goodness I feel the same way in regards to the discussion the father had with John about the Hedge of Thorns the Lord sometimes places those hedges for our protection and to remind us to keep our eye on HIM(the Lord). When I read that list the father talked about I nearly began to cry, so many times I have dealt with and continue to still deal with some of those listed thorns. Since reading this book I have come to realize what treasure it is for me, as I have always been a rebellious person, alot of times feeling like that angel with the halo dipped around my head and one eye open. My children have thoroughly enjoyed this book as well, and make it insistant that it be their literature book for now instead of the Mary Poppins series we are reading through.
I also began to weep internally for the story the father was telling John in regards to the young two children who lost their lives due to going outside the boundaries of the hedge in order to rescue the deer, although I think in more of my own hindsight, curiosity is what truly killed them, I dont think they really had intention of trying to save the deer as they must have known of some danger about the hedge.
Again this book is wonderful and I look forward to now joining in on any future book read the HSB LC has to offfer.
Okay, yeah...I am really late, but I'll post here anyway. ;-) This was definitely my favorite part of the book altogether. It was a moving moment when the father showed John what was on the other sides of the hedges. The analogy is so powerful. We don't know what's beyond our "hedges". The consequences of our sins are rarely clear to us when we're being tempted. That's why we can't rely on our knowledge of the consequences to make our decisions. We simply have to OBEY God to be protected from falling into the precipice. Our judgement is never good enough. It's our obedience that will save us from that danger.
John's discussion with his father was awesome. As I read it, my sister was on the other side of the room and I told her that she had to read the book!!!
I'm glad I was able to get the book--finally. =D I have definitely enjoyed it.
Welcome to HSB Literary Club. Please join us in reading Enoch Roden's Training by Hesba Stretton.
As Enoch's faith is tested, will he prove that his is no mere profession, but a real, living confidence in God's love and wisdom? Through severe trials, Enoch learns much about sound business principles, sacrifice, and trusting God. If he had only said, "I am working with God…" he would never have found the work wearisome, for of all grand, and comforting, and heart-refreshing thoughts in this world, to a Christian, the greatest is the thought that we are co-workers with God. Without a doubt, after reading this book, you'll walk away a better person than when you began.
To get started, click on the book icon and get yours ordered today!
(Jacque) We left our reading with John's father and mother sitting holding poor little Bell and John feeling worse than he ever has, probably in his entire life. He has had to hold the 'fruit' of his sin in his own hand, as Bell lie there, injured and scarred for life. John was so ashamed and scared for her. 
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