Posted in The Hedge of Thorns by John Hatchard

Amanda:
It truly amazes me how much I am like John or used to be. I totally understand what he is going through as he struggles to stay in the hedge and not try to break through. You are going to hear me say a lot how I can relate or understand or know what John is going through. The way John is in chapters 7 & 8 is a lot like I was and part of me still is. I am working on that tho.

I really do know the determination that he is having about going and visiting his friend. I really do understand his feeling of having to go and see what the world holds. Obviously we know that whatever John wants, he will push to get it. It is in his sinful nature and it has not been purged out. I think parents can only do so much to help a child at this age. Sometime soon they are going to have to let them go and decide what they will do. Sadly most of the time, as I have found out, the child will choose what they want rather than what is right. I struggled with a similar situation as what John is going through. I pushed all the way through the hedge and was only hanging onto a vine, when God grabbed hold of me and pulled me back through the hedge. I was all cut up as Bell was from the thorns I had pushed through. I am just recently getting those scars healed by Jesus. But I now see how important the hedge of thorns is.

I think God took Father home because he wanted John to see and realize that while he did have his religion in his mind, it wasn’t in his heart, as he said himself.
I think that eventually in everyone’s lives we lose our hedge at some point. I think that it is God’s way of, I wouldn’t really say testing us, but showing us that we are not who we think we are. (If that makes any sense.) I think He does occasionally lift our hedge to see what we will do. Obviously He already knows what we will do, but still all the same I think that He wants us to realize that we sometimes believe and think we would do something, when in actuality it comes down to the situation we will do what we really don’t want to.
I really like how on some of the most important chapters, John gives a very deep insight into the purpose of that chapter. At the end of chapter 6, I really loved this: "Freedom from your earthly parents’ authority brings responsibility, and your steps must be taken with great care and caution. That old serpent, the devil, knows our fleshly weaknesses and will tempt you with various lusts and vain persons." It is all too true that when a child grows up and leaves their parents’ home they think they are free from everything that they were subject too in the home. They have their own life and possessions that it really doesn’t matter what they had to do at home. They can do what they want. That is what I was worried about when they gave John his own apartment. Obviously his father still kept a close eye on him, but still having your own place gives you a sense of ownership and authority. And the devil knows our weakness of having authority in our own lives and he plays on that. I struggle with this a lot. Just turning 18 I had envisioned many things changing since I was an "adult". That was a façade. It doesn’t change when you hit the magical age of 18. It changes when you mature and become that adult you envision yourself as.

Jacque:
See, I didn't see that at all when they gave him the 'apartment'. I can understand that independence is a weakness that he has, because that is when his selfish nature came out before - when he did not have the hedge of his parents' guidance as he walked to and from school each day. It is clear, tho, that no one could take the place of that parental hedge. Not Mrs. Waring, not Bell, and not even his own conscience.

Wow.... "lose our hedge at some point." That is a lot to think about. Not that God ever gives up on us, but I see where God gives us a free will and allows us to see something like that. Perhaps removing the hedge is another hedge in the fact that finding out things about ourselves is ultimately how we learn to trust God. Seeing our own weakness and dependence on God is when we learn to trust him. That does not mean we are not to be independent. I believe we are. I think I heard a term, "independently dependent". God expects us to be who He created us to be and make the right choices of our own free will, but we will always be dependent on Him as God.

We try to teach our children the same independent dependence, don't we? When they are young?

Amanda:
Another I can really relate on with him is when he is wishing to follow Bell’s advice, but deep down inside he is only wishing to follow it to please her. He doesn’t want to follow it because it is the right thing, he wants to follow it because he feels guilty about what happened to Bell, and he thinks that if he pleases her it will all get better. I have done that before too. Showed that I wanted to do the right thing because I wanted them to think better of me, but when inside I just wanted to do the opposite. I used to have a big façade that everyone saw. I was two different people. In front of everyone I was the good little Christian girl who knew all the words to the worship songs, memorized my bible verse and did what I was told, but when I was alone, I was totally the opposite. I made everyone think that I was holy and righteous; when in reality I was same as the sinner who did unmentionable things. I wanted to do what was right, but then I didn’t. I wanted people to think the best of me, but really I didn’t care anymore. When I finally got tired of being two different people I decided which one I was. Hopefully you can see that.  : )

Jacque:
I think everyone is two different people. Perhaps not to the extreme of living two different lives, but in the manner that we can never be who we truly want to be, and we are striving to be that person or we are covering up that person. I think John was covering up that person. Amanda, you may have become that person, or even feel like that you were always that person(which I don't believe, knowing you personally in front of people and at home), but no one is perfect, and like John, we all have choices to be consumed by passions or not.

Life is a journey we must all walk with the Lord on the path He has set for each of us. Now, we can deny that path or we can follow it - or we can do a little of both. I think most Believers do a little of both, being imperfect. As we learn and grow, hopefully we will do less denying and more following. John obviously has a few more hedges to run into, over or hurdle, but God will continue to set them in each of our lives, I believe.

Amanda:
Now, I know that Auntie Christina noticed that there was little mention of John’s mother. It is very true that up until recent couple of decades or so, that the father did almost all of the child training. More specifically with the boys. While we can tell that Bell doesn’t need too much training in her character, the mothers did more of the daughter’s training. Hence we don’t hear a lot of Bell or Mother. It was very nice though to get a better insight into the type of mother and wife she was. I think that is one we can all aspire to be like.

Jacque:
I agree that the fathers did most of the training with boys at the age we enter the story and thereafter, and I think his mother's character showed through in Bell when she kept going back to what John should have done. She was still little enough that she was under her mother's tutelage, and I think she was sweet and innocent enough to see the right and wrong, even when John encouraged her to go into the hedge of thorns.

As a young lady of fourteen, she still is showing her mother's wisdom and gentleness. That is a huge picture to me of what a mother's attitudes and words mean in a child's heart - her spirit. It did tremendously stick out to me the reference to the Proverbs 31 woman (of his mother) when he 'rose up and called her blessed'.

Amanda:
What do you all think about the "other hedge"?? I can tell that John is not liking it. I wondered if Mrs. Waring would be a bigger part in the story than just his school teacher. I know exactly how John is feeling about having her as a guardian. He thinks he is finally free to fly, only to have to go back to the cage. I know that is not really how it is, but I am sure that is how he felt. He thought he was free from being under a "parental" authority only to find that God had another one for him. I am sure he was thinking that he would finally be able to do what he wanted and fulfill the aspiration he had that were different than what his parents had for him. Thank God that he had brought Mrs. Waring into his life to act as another hedge for him.
John’s statement about Mrs. Waring: "Though I revered her, I felt that it was not pleasant to have such a person always observing my actions, and not considering that there was One ever with me, who is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" is very true among young people I think. I know that when I was in rebellion I used to think that my parents and any other adults that were in charge of me were just there to control me. I figured that if God was watching over me, then they didn’t need to worry about me. Oh how wrong I was. Most adults who are in our lives are there as a protection for us. They keep us from straying too far. Hopefully we will see if John comes to understand this.

Jacque:
I took the comment John made about Mrs. Waring as meaning that he did not want such a strong Believer (like Father) to always be around him, because surely his sin will be found out. It just made me think that John could more easily conceal who he was if someone less knowledgeable of the Bible, less discerning, were there.  He said, "...not considering that there was One ever with me, who is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.", meaning that he was worried about Mrs. W, but had forgotten about God Himself, who not only sees all things, but can discern even his heart. He was so far removed from God in his mind at that point, he forgot Mrs. Waring was nothing compared to God.

"My father, coming up, had interrupted our discourse, but not before I had drawn in a great deal of poison from the conversation of this young man" (p. 58)

And, I think we missed a couple of hedges here. I think his Father's stroke was the next hedge. John had already decided in his heart that he was going to follow this path. His stroke, then his death, when John had no other choice but to stay with his mother and sister - begrudgingly too, were hedges allowed by God. He so wanted to leave and chase this other scheme that he only stayed because of "a merciful God, working on me by the means of ...the shame of not being thought a good son." (p. 59)  Then his Mother died, and again, he wanted to go. Whatever this was, it was something so deep-seated that he himself had to experience it to see for himself. All the Scripture and instruction in the world were not enough to sway him. He knew in his heart that his desires were wrong, or he would not have concealed them from so many for so long. He felt this way when Father was still alive. He could have spoken with him about it. Or his mother. Then, he was so consumed with it, he turned his heart against Mrs. Waring.

Amanda:
As we end chapter 8, we still see that John is following his sinful desires and determination. He still plans to go see his friend. He still intends to save money to get the new suit. I am sort of scared to see what scrapes he gets himself into. It really puzzles me that as into his life as his father was, Father did not help break or mold this very strong spirit of determination in John. I wonder why if his father saw this streak, he did not do something about it.

Jacque:
Hmmm. That is a good question. I think. I am at first almost offended that you might accuse him as a parent of not noticing this streak, but then, with the presentation of your question, I begin to wonder myself. He would have had to know there was this determined spirit. I don't think 'determined' is explanatory enough though. I think it was a demanding spirit moreso. I think he is demanding his own way. I think whatever his mother and father planted in his heart to respect them and his elders has kept him from following through completely (and served as a hedge), but that disgust he keeps feeling and his determination seem to be about ready to get him into a heap of trouble.

I know personally, that when I see a particular bent in any of my children toward a weakness or a strength, bells go off, so-to-speak. So, that is a valid question. Of course, having been so inspired at his Father's gentleness when everything happened with Bell, I might assume that Father did all he could, but John is determined to do as he wishes, regardless. Maybe he will speak to that in one of the next 2 chapters.

Amanda:
Well... those are my thoughts. I can’t wait to see all of yours. Thank you for your participation in the Literary Club.
Happy reading!!


Thank you all. This is a great discussion group!! We are picking out the next book, so we will be letting you know so you can get that ordered if you don't already have it. The next two chapters, 9 and 10, are the last ones. Those and the Remarks.

  Jacque
Seeking Rest in the Ancient Paths Homeschool