October 25, 2005

A Friendly Discussion

Comments

Posted by takingthechallenge

...taking on this subject :) For our family, the best explanation for the differences between the Chronicles of Narnia and the Lord of the Rings series came from a book called "Harry Potter and the Bible" I bought it just because I felt uncomfortable with the HP series, but wanted something more than my "feelings" when discussing it with my children. This book really helped me understand not only what was in the HP books, but the differences between it and the other previously mentioned books. My kids and I read the book together and we've shared it with several friends. It's written by Richard Abanes and I can't recommend it highly enough. He doesn't get ugly, he just presents quotes and overviews from the books and principles from scripture as well as quotes from Christians and people coming from a secular vantage point. It is a really well-rounded presentation in my opinion. Hope that helps :)

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Posted by 3PartHarmony

I'm probably not the best person to try to answer this, considering my point of view is not exactly mainstream Christian, but I don't see any problem with stories that use magic and fantasy to illustrate good versus evil. I'm not sure why people don't that have a problem with HP and Disney don't seem to have the same issues with Narnia, unless maybe it's because, as you said, Lewis was a Christian.

I'm reading the book now to my kids (ages 5, 6, and 8) and I'm going to preview the movie before I decide whether to allow them to watch it or not.

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Posted by redmom

I don't know that there is a difference. I think it's something each person decides for themselves. I'm sure I'm more "loose" than many. I grew up with I Dream of Genie, Bewitched and Casper and never thought a thing of it. So....I'll refrain from the debate. lol

I do want to comment that I went to a workshop regarding the new Narnia movie and it's pretty clear that it's NOT intended for young children. Yes, the characters are weird/creepy looking and there is violence. I'd say pre-teen and up. The movie is as-yet unrated, but it will be at least PG, possibly PG-13.

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Posted by angelstar

I love your discussion!! I am a HUGE Narnia fan and I think for me, knowing that C.S. Lewis was a Christian when he wrote these and that there are so many correlations between his Christian beliefs and what he wrote, helps me to understand where he is coming from with his stories. Now, I admit when the Harry Potter books first came out, I was very excited about them, but my children were not. I think the Potter books do not have any Christian correlation at all and there is so much where the "magic" is not used for the greater good, if you know what I mean. I got rid of the Potter books as my children just thought they were ridiculous and when I found out more about them from a Christian point of view, I decided not to go there. Also, I love Science Fiction books and some Fantasy and so these appeal to me. I don't think if you like this kind of book that it's going to appeal to you any way. I did get two books recently from the Christian bookstore about the Narnia stories. They bring the characters and the meanings of the stories to life and show the correlation to the Bible that Lewis was trying to make.

I think each family has to do what feels comfortable to them regarding the Lewis and Tolkien books (another favorite of mine). I totally agree with you about the monsters in the new movie. I think they are very similar to the horrid monsters depicted in the Lord of the Ring movies and it would be much too much for your young children. My children are older and it's not so scarey for them.

Just my 2 cents. I'm so glad you brought this up as it's a really valid point you are making!! I just think for me, the magic has to be used for the greater good and I have to know where the author was coming from. I don't think the Harry Potter author has some greater good in mind. Just my humble opinion. :o)

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Posted by

I had a long brilliant answer written and it got lost (as all my "brilliant" pieces do). But in short I will say this. I really do not have a problem with witches in fairy tales or in the books you mentioned. Witches ( and wizards) are often depicted as evil in these works. When they are, they are merely representations In a story, we usually need to see Evil to contrast it with Good, and these characters do this admirably. I would rather see this than Satan himself drop into a tale! For one thing, how would you depict Satan? Angel of Light? Some Laughable Cartoon character? A menancing wraith? I am not comfortable any of those, even more so in a story intended for children. And Evil Men in a story present complications as well. If the hero kills the villian (who possess a soul) then the situation it raised to a whole other moral level of debate. Could the villain have repented if he had not been struck down so soon? It is far better to have the heroes defeat beings of pure evil, just as these witches and monsters often are.

Other times the "wizards" and such are presented as good. These are magical beings, or have been granted with supernatural powers, who use them to aid mankind. I think that the confusion here rests in terminology. For instance, Tolkien use the term "wizard" because it possessed a root association with the word Wise. Just as our Wise Men in the scriptures did. Unless you call them Magi. From which we derive the term magic. You see how confusing it gets. Gandalf, the wizard in The Lord of the Rings, was not a "wizard" in the traditional sense at all, though he appeared so to the unlearned hobbits. He was "really" (within the context of the tale) a sort of angelic being sent to act as a Steward of Middle Earth--sort of a guardian angel.

I do not take the occult lightly. We do not celebrate Halloween-- too close to appeasing evil spirits for my taste. We do not dally with horoscopes or any object that claims it can foretell the future for us. And on a note of warning, I confiscated that Richard Abanes book that the previous poster mentioned. He quotes real occult spells (including some that strike me as pornographic) in order to make a point that Harry Potter mimics the occult. I think he stretches the point entirely. My kids don't read Harry Potter, but I would rather they read Harry Potter than have their curiousity excited about the real occult spells that Abanes introduces them to. My personal opinion.

As far as the monster in the movie thing, yes, I think we need to wait to see the movie first. I will be reviewing it on the website when it comes out. But I have five kids ages 5 to 22, and will tell you one thing from experience. It is rarely the monsters in movies that scare my kids. It is either (a) stories where a mother is killed--- a Shirley Temple movie gave them the worst nightmares ever. or (B) stories about children being abandoned. In fact, my daughter was very upset the other day and when I tracked down the matter it seemed that she had heard a program on PBS that was funded by the "No Child Left Behind Grant" and she was immensely worried about all the kids that were left behind--somewhere!


This is the short answer. I have a long answer, but you really don't want to get me started. :) Thanks for asking this in such a friendly way!


Edited by MiddleEarthMom on October 24, 2005 at 11:40 PM

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Posted by gal51

I haven't read what others have written if you have other comments, but basically here's my take on Narnia ... C.S. Lewis wrote these as an allegory of the Christian life (much like Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory of the Christian life). A boy once wrote him and said, "I fear that I love Aslan more than Jesus." To which Lewis replied and explained that Aslan IS Jesus.

I look at the overall theme of stories that have magic in them ... is magic the theme and how is it treated or is it an element and, again, how is it treated? I have no problem, quite frankly, with some stories that have magic or witches in them ... I look at the overall story and see how it portrays good vs. evil. I think some stories are excellent ways to show the triumph of good over evil to children (key word SOME, not all!).

I try not to make a blanket statement that "If it has a witch in it I won't read it" because the Bible has a witch in it. The Bible also has demons in it. But how is the subject treated, portrayed? Who ultimately wins? To what does the story point us? To Biblical truth or to lies? A great short comment about this very subject is written here - http://www.fiveinarow.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000031.html

"A Landscape With Dragons" by Michael D. O'Brien is an excellent book on this topic.

Blessings!

~Heather

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Posted by hippiechyck

LOL! ;-)

i'll state right up front that i am a huge HP fan...and the only other thing i will say about him is there is a link on my blog to "John Granger's site", who is a homeschooling dad of 8 and an English major. He looks at HP and JK Rowlings writing style on that basis and his opinions are extremely interesting. He shows how JKR writes in the same style as the Inklings, of which were Lewis and Tolkien...follow that link if you'd like to read more ;-)

there is a world of difference between "fantasy" and "reality" and in general, kids know that difference. I read lots of fantasy, watched every episode of every Star Trek, etc...yes, some books/shows get more dark than needed and i skip that particular book/show/movie...and i do limit what the young boys watch fairly well. Even shows that they are allowed sometimes cross *MY* line...and i think that is the key. What you have prayerfully decided among your family is what is acceptable for *YOU*...the problems come from sources that state an absolute and say that you need to adhere to their absolute. Richard Abanes really cannot tell me in any authority that i may NOT read HP, participate in a birthday party or have a Christmas tree. He is neither my husband or Pastor (using him as example because he is mentioned above) He may present his reasonings, Scripturally backed, and I may take these things to the Lord myself and seek HIS heart on how i raise my family

And i have no idea in the world WHY, except that certain things cross personal lines, that one form of "wizard" is any more acceptable than any other...example in my own strange world ;-) i HATE vampires....but the younger son has been watching a few Halloween shows and thinks they are cool...i have explained to him why i don't like them...and his answer is "but they aren't even real!"

who says kids can't discern? ;-)

i give you back your blog AmyBeth...sorry i wrote a full posst, heeehehehe!

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Posted by EvlHmSchlMom

I know that I am not going to be agreed with by the majority here, but I really have NO problem with the whole witch craft/wizzardry/fantasy books. I don't think that books written by Christian authors has anything to do about whether a book is "OK" or "Not OK". If it gets my children interested in reading then I am all for it. (Pope John Paul II thought HP was great because it got kids to read...current Pope isn't so flexible) I got flamed big time when DH and I took our kids to see Star Wars III. There is a line between realistic and nonrealistic that my kids know and are comfortable with. MHPO is each family has to do what they feel is right for their own kids. Getting suggestions from fellow parents and books clubs etc...is a great help, but it all needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

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Posted by HomeschoolBlessings

Hi Amy Beth,
First, I want to say thanks for the welcome. And that *love* your blog. It is beautifully done.

On the topic of these various books, I am going to try to keep my opinion out of it. As a Christian, it is not my opinion that matters.

I look at all books, movies and other media from the standpoint of "Would God approve?".
You can also look at it from the perspective of being familiar enough with the world to be able to reach them but yet not be of it.
Can your child read this and not want to take part in it? There was a study done ( I wish I could remember where) that showed a correlation with the steep rise in witchcraft among children and the release of the Harry Potter series. This rise had no effect with the release of Lord of the Rings. Is that because the message it portrays is perceived differently? And if so, why? What is different about the way the Bible portrays such issues with the way worldly media portrays it?

If a child needs to be exposed to the existence of such things outside of the Bible then perhaps a source that does not make a child desire to explore it further is the better choice. For our family we chose to read the Kingdom's Dawn series (By Chuck Black) which is an allegory of the Bible within a medieval type of perspective without the use of witchcraft.

But the question is, does a child need exposure to it from outside the Bible? Perhaps some children do need to in order to fulfill there calling. Only you can prayerfully answer that.

Blessings,
Vicki

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Posted by aboycik

My 10 year old daughter (5th grade, reading at 3rd grade level) and I just had this discussion a couple weeks ago. We were having a sleepover and girls from our church would be there. She said she wondered what they would think of her reading Harry Potter. I told her I'd rather not have the book out and lying around because many of the parents whose children would be over wouldn't want their children to read it and if the book was out, I'd inevitibly have to explain. I told her that I didn't want to have to speak to these children about it because we respected the decision their families have made. Anyway, she asked why I let her read it. I told her that I wasn't concerned that she would grow up to be a witch and use magic for the sake of evil deeds. She laughed. I told her I meant it. I took the opportunity to share that I was concerned about her presentation of her body to the world, and her ideas about the sort of relationships she would develop with boys - eventually men. Because of that, we don't watch MTV, we don't follow Lindsay Lohan and the "belly showing" crowd.
I've read all the Harry Potter books and have enjoyed them. They show a consequence to actions that satisfies me. In my eyes they are a magical fantasy, much like other stories mentioned in your post.
I want my children separate from the world, but not for the sake of separation. I don't consider that God's intent, but for the purpose of sanctification (being pure and holy). Again, I'm not concerned about my daughter's moving to "the dark side" so I pragmatically choose their separation to protect them from real world possibilities.

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Posted by KarenW

The Bible is pretty clear on witch craft so I won't go over that. I do not have a problem with there being a witch in Chronicles of Narnia because she is depicted as evil. There are witches and evil people in the Bible so you can't eliminate all books with those elements.I personally think that it is wrong to depict witches as "good" like in the Wizzard of Oz, Bewitched and Harry Potter.

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Posted by smfeet2001

with our homeschool group. Now I have to show proof that it may be PG 13 and has violence.

HELP!!

Holly

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Posted by MelismaTo4

...avoid writing about this topic altogether. But I'm so glad you posted about it, and I love reading what others have said. I also love your blog and the picture of the pumpkin you carved last year. What a wonderful way to witness during this season!

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Posted by Anonymous

First, I want to make it clear that I am a Christian with fairly conservative beliefs. I have tried to instill in my children a strong belief in God. So, I am not threatened by fictional characters such as witches, wizards, etc. From an early age, if they read a book or watched a movie with fantasy characters, we discussed the fact that it was make-believe. Children are pretty intelligent; they know know the difference between reality. But still, we use these opportunities to reinforce our belief that God is the only supernatural Being.

Linda
http://exasperated.blogspot.com/

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Posted by jewls2texas

Amy Beth I commend you for opening a discussion about something like this - I think I will post my comments on my blog - Thanks

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Posted by betcsu

escape to witch mountain. it turned out they werent really witches after all but but rather aliens from another planet! LOL

god bless everyone and happy reading! :o)

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