Poor Boy Hat

Jul. 19, 2007

Stepping into the fray

Time for some non-pot-stirring (hopefully) light shedding on some issues.

 

I just happened to drop by Paul's blog and discovered a debate in full swing between this dude Chris and, apparently, the rest of HSB's teen bloggers. Chris apparently said (in this post) the following: I believe that being gay is not a sin, but that being a practicing gay is a sin.

 

Now, this is a very general statement, and one that can be easily misunderstood. In fact, based on some of Chris's comments later on Paul's blog, I believe it was indeed misunderstood.

 

That's right, I'm taking Chris's side on this one. I think we're still outnumbered, though . . . :P

 

So, what exactly do I believe? Well, this might take a while. Before we get started, bear in mind that it may sound at first that I'm saying some wacky things. Please read this post thoroughly and make sure you understand what I'm saying, because I do believe I'm taking the Biblical stance on this issue.

 

First, what does it mean to be gay? I think most people define being gay as actively participating in homosexual behavior. However, I think Chris was defining "gay" as meaning "having homosexual feelings." THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what I have seen, the Bible only specifically addresses homosexual activity. In Leviticus, it does not condemn being tempted to engage in homosexual behavior, it condemns the behavior itself. This is also very important.

 

All of us, if we are honest with ourselves, will admit that we are regularly tempted to do sinful things. This temptation is our fleshly desire. It is Satan (the "roaring lion") trying to catch us and cause us to sin. We may not be tempted to do anything homosexual, but we are all tempted toward other sins. Hopefully, we are able to resist these temptations. However, the fact that we are tempted is not sinful! Jesus himself was tempted to sin, but did not.

 

This is the important distinction that I believe Chris was making, and that I personally agree with. As a result of our fallen state, some of us, even as Christians, may be tempted to engage in homosexual behavior or feel a physical attraction to someone of the same sex. But it is only when we act on these temptations that we begin sinning!

 

I think this debate could have been entirely avoided if Chris had been a little more clear about what he meant. That is not to say that it is his fault. I'm just trying to create some understanding.

 

I welcome your thoughts on this matter!

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Comments

Jul. 19, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Chris
i agree with u 90%!! and will be posting something similar tomorrow (i wrote it already)

the 10% i don't agree on is the out number thing :) those that agree with me just like to stay in the shadows lol i don't get 60+ a day from all ppl that hate me lol
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Jul. 19, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by frogiggie89
Oh boy...I'm staying out of this one. :)

However, I think that declaring yourself to be gay, and being tempted is entirely different.
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Jul. 19, 2007 - Well Put!

Posted by midwifemom
I saw this on the front page and had to read it. I totally agree. To simplify things a little, how many times have you been in a store and thought about pocketing a piece of candy or a pack of gum. I am totally shocked when these thoughts enter my head and don't even consider actually taking it. Does that make me a thief? No, it means I am human. It means that Satan plants thoughts in my head. I choose whether to act on it or not.
So it is with homosexuality. I may be tempted by Satan. That is not wrong. It is wrong if I act on those thoughts.
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Jul. 19, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous
I disagree entirely. Point number one - the bible states that when we are in heaven we will be judged on all of our deeds, words, and thoughts. It makes no difference if you thought gay thoughts or if you did gay things, you will still be judged. Thoughts are just as wrong as actions. I could say I’m not going to have sex, and be a virgin for the rest of my life. But if I still think about sex I still haven’t accomplished anything. Point two – in Corinthians 6: 9 it says: Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexuals. It does not say nor people who practice homosexuality, it says nor homosexuals. Point three – in his statement Chris says “I do not believe that being gay is a sin, but that being a practicing gay is a sin.” Being gay is no longer a temptation, but an acceptance. Temptation is not the issue here, acceptance is. Jesus was tempted to sin, but he didn’t except the temptation. When some one is tempted to be gay and they turn away from that, they aren’t being gay. But when some one is tempted to be gay, and they accept it, they are being gay. Do you get what I’m saying? I hope you do, and I hope you see were you’re wrong about this.
- Your sister in Christ, alison
p.s. I don’t have a blog here, and that’s way I’m anonymous, and i'm sorry if this is really long.
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Jul. 19, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by PoorBoyHat
I do not think you understand what I'm saying.

First of all, Chris did not mean to say that people who accept their homosexuality are not sinning. It may have sounded like that, but he clarified it in a comment on Paul's blog. Neither he nor I believe that.

Second, there is a difference between temptation and lust. Temptation is indeed thoughts, but we know that being tempted is not a sin. Lust is when you choose to dwell on those thoughts. If someone is lusting homosexually, than they are sinning. But that was not my point. My point is, the devil can say "why don't you do this?" and in that case you're being tempted. However, you are not sinning.

You quote from Corinthians does not address what I am saying. You say "It does not say nor people who practice homosexuality, it says nor homosexuals." So, that means that someone who is tempted to do something homosexual is indeed a homosexual? That is entirely unBiblical.

As for "accepting temptation", you accept temptation when you act on it. You may well be tempted to do something for the rest of your life, and that may be a trial God allows for you to make you stronger. Once again, I repeat, being tempted is not a sin. Being tempted REPEATEDLY is NOT a sin.

As a last note, read this verse Hebrews 4:15, which says: For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

"In all points"!!!That means that Jesus was tempted homsexually! And yet he still did not sin. That is exactly my point.

~Timothy
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Jul. 19, 2007 - This is Disciple from TTH

Posted by SoccerStar
Yes, very nice view you have there. I agree, having attractions to to people of the same sex is inevitable. Same as being attracted to a person of the opposite genre, but it's acting upon these desires that God despises. If you are indeed, homosexual, then you need to not think about thoughts of the sort or act upon them. Same for anyone, if you find a pretty girl, you don't lust over her, you respect her. You cannot look down on someone because their thoughts are different than you, but acting upon selfish impulse is the sin. Same as killing, anger, idolizing, or adultery. One verse says that if you consider doing it, you've already done it, but another verse says that if you keep anger to yourself, it is not a sin, but do not act upon that anger. Same as everything, you need to keep your thoughts pure no matter what.

Edited by SoccerStar on Jul. 19, 2007 at 8:52 PM
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Jul. 19, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by totustuus
Hi there,
I saw your comment on Paul's blog, and I wanted to say that I appreciate you taking the time to write all of this out. I was thinking of doing the same thing. You communicated it very well; I was having many of the exact same concerns about this misunderstanding.

One thing that might need to be addressed, though, is what Chris means by "being gay". I think that Coie sort of brought it up in her comment earlier. I certainly don't believe that it is a genetic thing, just as the desire to steal or the desire to lie wouldn't be genetic. But, as Chris hasn't made his views clear on this, I won't go too deeply into this can of worms. I look forward to his post tomorrow; perhaps it will help to clear some of this up.

Regards,
Sylvia
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Jul. 20, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous
"Point number one - the bible states that when we are in heaven we will be judged on all of our deeds, words, and thoughts. It makes no difference if you thought gay thoughts or if you did gay things, you will still be judged."

That is all very well and true, exept one thing. All thoughts, words, /and/ deeds were payed for by Christ and his death on the cross. Now, you could ask, "Then why don't we do whatever we feel like and still get clean by Christ?"..... Um, I think I'll wait for you to ask that. It's getting late and that's another discussion.

But what I wanted to bring up was, true, lust and thinking are two different things, especially when temptaion comes into play. Yet Jesus says (roughly, I may not be quoting it word for word), "When you kill someone you are commiting murder. But even if you think rage and hate against someone, you are commiting murder." If so, couldn't we just say, "Oh, the Devil was tempting me to hate my brother (or stranger or idiot driver) so I take no blame in it" ? I think there's something there, yet it's late and not all brain cells are running.....

I'll continue to reply back here if you want to say something...

Night all
-Jake Kelton
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Jul. 20, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by PoorBoyHat
Thanks for the comment, man. :)

I see what you're getting at with the hate thing. The way I see it, though, you are tempted to hate before you begin having hateful thoughts. Before you allow hate to enter your soul, you are tempted, yet you have not yet sinned. That's my main point here. If we can be tempted to sin and yet not sin in so many different cases, than certainly homosexual temptation is no different.

In fact, temptation is a character builder when we use the strength that God has given us to resist it. The fact that we are tempted should not be viewed as a sin!

Maybe it would help to put it this way: We can choose whether or not we dwell on lustful or hateful thoughts. We cannot choose whether or not we are tempted. The Devil tempts, and we either respond correctly or incorrectly. Yet it is our response that determines whether or not we have sinned.

~Timothy
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Jul. 20, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Chris
hey wanna be friends?
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Jul. 20, 2007 - alison's comment

Posted by Anonymous
oops! i've done it agian. (communication skills are not my thing) oh well. thank you for clearing that up for me. After reading your post about five times and reading all the comments, i see that i should have kept my mouth shut, since now i must say that what i was saying - being gay is still a sin even if you don't practice homosexual behavior - is correct. however you were saying that chris didn't mean being gay isn't a sin, he meant being tempted isn't a sin. very sorry for my stupidity. oh well, this is why i don't blog - alison
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Jul. 20, 2007 - oh great......

Posted by Kalene
i believe that god created a man to love a women. and thats that. in the bible it says you can sin with your thoughts, so even if a person is not practicing homosexuality he can still think about doing something with another guy and God counts it as a sin.
thats all i have to say!

<3 *kalene*

Edited by Kalene on Jul. 20, 2007 at 9:23 AM
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Jul. 20, 2007 - Wow, not what I expected from you, Timothy

This is some of what I commented to Chris:
You are splitting hairs on this issue, just as satan himself did in the garden when he said to Eve, "Did God *really* say....?". I want Sylvia and Timothy to think about that too. God DOES judge the intents of our hearts... Thoughts of stealing is covetousness; Thoughts of murder start with hatred; thoughts of homosexuality go against the nature of God and lean to the idolatries of man. Basic Ten Commandments.

In addition to that, it's ironic that if you ask a homosexual what defines him as a homosexual, he or she is not going to say the act of. He or she would say it is that they are attracted to the same sex. They love the same sex in the way I love my husband.
They have fought long and hard for people to *not* think of homosexuality as "the act of", but rather, a loving people who just love the same sex instead of the opposite. Here you are bringing the word homosexual down to the act of, and it's ironic that a homosexual would more than likely try to get you away from that definition, and it would line up with the feelings and thoughts in their hearts that cause them to "feel" attracted to the opposite sex.

Now, you will NOT change my mind. None of you have given more scripture than opinion. That really disappointed me when I read yours and Sylvia's comments.
I was disappointed with a mundane, "Here's what I think" and 1 verse.

Blessings in Him,
Mrs. Dixon
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Jul. 20, 2007 - RE: TO Comment on Chris's Blog:

The issue you raised was already addressed in a comment on your own post.
Please do not feel it is ok or respectful to trivialize something an adult says. It isn't. The last remark and question you made is a judgement you are not equipped to make about me and what I would do or think should be done.
Suppose you have a Christian brother who is under heavy homosexual temptation, Frankly, I would say to look before the thoughts at why satan would tempt him so strongly. What has this person let into their heart that satan would possibly think he could catch him on??
Is it a sin to watch Will & Grace??? How lax will one become to accepting the homosexual lifestyle if constantly bombarded with the acceptance on that show??? Frog in a Kettle. You don't just wake up ine day and say, "Hey, I think I mught have to fight off these feelings."
This is pointless. You all are now bent on opinions, instead of scripture. There wasn't on in this comment, either. Go read Paulie's and SuperAngel's Scripture. When we get to the Throne and the true Judge judges all of this, His opinion will be the only one that matters.
Mrs. D.
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Jul. 20, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by frogiggie89
Timothy, it has been very interesting reading everything you are writing. So far, you are the only one that is presenting their beliefs without sounding hateful.

I also liked what you said about coexistence on Chris' blog.
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Jul. 20, 2007 - ........

Posted by Annaka
Amen to that frogiggie89! I couldn't agree more :)

~Annaka
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Jul. 20, 2007 - Timothy...

Posted by SuperAngel
Ok... you asked for my thoughts. Do you really want them?? LOL!!
I did read your post yesterday. I disagree with you.
I am saying this in all Christian love and kindness. I hope I don't sound too mean. =0)

I am not going to debate this with anyone. I posted what the Word of God says. I did not in anyway give my opinions. That was all God's infallible words. If you want to debate with someone, debate it with Him. He wrote them. I am just one of the vessels that He is using to show everyone what He said. Jocelyn, Paulie, Eric, and many other bloggers are others.

I used multiple verses to prove what I was saying...why did you use only one verse to disprove me?? Why instead of trying to disprove this, didn't you get scripture that would prove you are correct??

Chris's comment about homosexuality was not misunderstood. He said, "I believe that being gay is not a sin, but that being a practicing gay is a sin."

Did you know that is what he originally said??
That means, he thinks that being gay is ok, unless you act on it. That is wrong. The Word of God says so. If I want to murder someone, but don't act on it, is that sin?? I thought in my heart that I wanted to kill someone and that goes against one of the 10 commandments. Is it wrong for me to only think about killing someone and not follow through with it??

Why can you agree with him on this issue and not the others?? Is it because you have scriptures that tell you that what Chris is saying does not line up with what the Bible says on the others?? I do too. But, where is your scripture for the one you agree with him on? I disagree with him on each issue, because I have scripture that refutes it.

Please try to understand what I am saying. I do really hope I did not sound harsh. It really bugs me when people take the Word out of context for their own purposes.

Coie is wrong. No one is being hateful. It is hard to hear one's tone in a comment. Well... almost.
Sincerely,
Amanda Dixon
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May. 3, 2008 - What is Gay, really?

Posted by Berevi
To begin with, being gay should be regarded as a variation no different to people than Blond is from Brown.

It seems to me that around us, from children to the old, we are surrounded by gays. These our friends, our loved ones, our children. We know many truly good people who just want to be loved, and free to love. How can we hate our friends, loved ones, our children? It is the truth of human existence that we fear what we don't understand. They are gay. It is O.K. Why would they CHOOSE something they fear will make those THEY love, hate or abandon them? Just because some religious rambling says so? We must follow our hearts, our souls. Love our people. ALL our people. It is so very important we do so. Or we will never be one as a people. Stop your child fearing you. Let them be the only thing they feel they can. Show them how to love themselves and to love in life honorably, with caring, and instill in them the future. This world is so many, with many voices screaming to be heard, when all these people want is love. Let them love, give them that right.

If you must, imagine this: What if your son, say 10 or 12 years old, is unable to express his fears to you. What if he is scared to let you down? To make you hate him? Why would you think, this child, who loves you, and you know you love so much, want to CHOOSE to be something you would despise? If God is real, then logic would suggest: If you place fear, and despise your own, even if you never know he is gay, because he is terrified of you, then that is YOUR SIN. A child should be able to share their fears, hopes, and dreams with the parents that love them. It would be YOUR FAULT if you cannot love YOUR OWN child because you think he CHOOSES this, instead of comfort and love. Use common sense, forget religious nonsense. Love your children, and the poor lonely scared adults they become.
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Welcome to Poor Boy Hat. My name is Timothy. I'm a Junior in high school and a (obviously!) homeschooler in good old East Tennessee. Here you will find my thoughts on anything and everything. I may also put up some of my poems and stories and such. Some people say they're actually good. Please also check out ApricotPie.com. There you can find more of my creative writing. Enjoy!

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