Home Where They Belong... - Huckabee and Homeschoolers

Gena Suarez
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Dec. 17, 2007 - What about the homeschoolers in a not so loving home?

Public school teachers are supposed to notify child welfare if they suspect abuse (many still fall through the cracks). But my question is who should protect homeschooled children from abusive parents? If homeschool parents demand absolutely no government interference, then who should look after children in bad homeschool environments? Should it be other homeschool parents?

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Dec. 17, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Spunky, great to read you again! I appreciate you taking the time to dissect the Huckabee platform like this. I am curious if you have done the same type of evaluation of Ron Paul's policies. I'm personally not sure why Ron Paul is not getting more homeschooler support since he appears from everything I can see to be a very consistent, principled man on these issues as well as just about any other issue that is on the table. He votes on principle and conscience, not on polls or trends or because of pressure.

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Dec. 17, 2007 - Thanks, Spunky....

....for posting this message. I'm voting for Ron Paul. Laurie

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Dec. 17, 2007 - Do we want a Purpose Driven President???

That sounds alot like the current CA gov... :(

I'm glad that you are posting a 3 part series on this Spunky. Most ppl just can't find the time to do any research on important matters. Personally I do not want a president who is a Rick Warren clone/ puppet.
http://www.mikehuckabee.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Blogs.View&Blog_id=658

True Christ-followers would be wise to look at that "vertical" issue. http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/False-Teachers.html We have a choice to become informed/discerning sheep instead of dumb ones that follow anything :)

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Dec. 17, 2007 - Untitled Comment

I too found HSLDA's endorsement of Huckabee rather odd especially with the E-lert easily retrieved from their state history files - AND seeing that Dr. Paul is heads above the rest when it comes to support of homeschooling and fighting big Pharma and forced mental health screenings (in introduced legislation, not just lip service).

It certainly hasn't made me second-guess dropping my membership. Do that many homeschoolers look to the HSLDA to tell them how to vote?

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Dec. 17, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Personally, I think Fred Thompson is the most likely to vote the way I want on ALL of the issues - not just homeschooling, marriage and abortion.

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Thank You Spunky~

I would be interested in your answer to Paula's question about "children in not-so-loving homes. What type of government is it that takes away the liberties of all parents because of the lawlessness of others?

As I read this article, it took me back to George Bush's agenda for education, which included the No Child Left Behind Act and full-day kindergarten. I knew he was going to push those through. Did I agree with him on other issues? Yes. Did I agree with him on these? I have learned that faith means different things to diffferent people, but normally Christians agree on the abortion issue, the marriage issue and such. I was not happy with what he thought about education.

So here we are with Mike Huckabee before the primaries. We need to make sure our eyes are wide open to everything he believes if we are going to "trust him with homeschooling." Whether we like it or not, our beliefs shape our decisions. If he is flip-flopping on homeschooling/education beforehand, he will surely do it as the President. If he is buddying up to the NEA in any way, shape or form, we would be negligent to believe he is an advocate for homeschooling. If he cannot separate the destruction of the government school system from the strengths of homeschooling, then homeschoolers need to let him know that "We do believe a horizontal view of education is best."

If he really doesn't believe homeschooling is the best choice, why is he the favorite of homeschoolers? Honestly, when I hear "Homeschoolers for Huckabee," and I see banners that say the same thing, I keep wondering, "Who came up with this?". Perhaps it is the moral homeschooling majority who are backing him the most, but that does not mean that most homeschoolers are backing him. It does not mean that most Christian homeschoolers are backing him. I wasn't 'backing him' before, but after reading this, I am not backing him.

I believe in the good 'ole USofA, but I have seen laws passed in the last couple of years that I would have thought, "Not in a million years..." I think our rights to homeschool are on the chopping block everyday, and we cannot get too comfortable in our present state and freedoms. I believe what you said here is key: "who are actively attempting to move this country away from the principles of our founding and toward socialism and a planned economy; where our children are viewed simply as workers to compete in the global economy."

I do not belong the the HSLDA. If I did, I wouldn't automatically vote for someone because they endorsed him. I find it disconcerting and a lack in their judgment to endorse him when they, in their own Court Report, record Mike Huckabee's signing of such bills into law as an "effort to increase state regulation of home education," which is the exact opposite direction they fight to take homeschooling legislation.
Education is an important issue. History proves it out. Governments and religious organizations both know the importance of the education of its' citizens to the advancement of their agenda. As homeschool parents, we know the importance of a home education to the future of our children. It makes me wonder why the HSLDA would support a candidate who clearly legislates against the homeschooling efforts they themselves so staunchly support.
Just a thought. I am anxiously awaiting your next two articles, Spunky.
blessings~ Jacque

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Good Post!

I completely agree, Spunky. It is nice to see you back, by the way. :+)

I find Huckabee to be disturbing in other areas as well. His decision to release a serial rapist who went on to rape and murder again is only one of them.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/04/documents-expose-huckabee_n_75362.html.

Then he went on to tell a different story about the situation. I do not trust him at all.

I don't think he should have our support and he does not have mine.

Keep up the posting! We need you back for the national election!

:+) Warmly,
Kate

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Good Job, Spunky!

Spunky,

Thanks for your labors on this. I think Christians should understand fully who Mike Huckabee is before they vote for him. While he stands firm on abortion, etc., his foreign policy approach strikes me as naive, and his tax and spend history has the ring of 'Big Brother" government. I look forward to your next post.

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Dec. 18, 2007 - A response to Paula

I very much appreciate these articles on Huckabee, and look forward to the next two.

Some thoughts for Paula, who asked who was going to report parents for child abuse, if not the teacher?

First, I would like to remind Paula that public education is a modern entity, and that mankind has "lived without it" and been better off (in my opinion) without it in past centuries.

Next, I'd like to say that from what I have read, it is often neighbors and relatives who turn in abusive parents. And yes, as Paula acknowledged, many children in the public school system fall through the cracks.

I think of Steven Stayner, who was kidnapped at 7 years of age - and his stranger-abductor had him attending school. No one ever found out. Or the more recent teen rescued after four years with his stranger-abductor. He was not in school, but his neighbors were aware of his presence. He did not let on that he was "the kid" and that he was in trouble. Even when one neighbor told him that he looked just like that kid that was abducted. He denied it ... scared for his life.

If they don't fall through the cracks, they wind up in foster care, which is a very broken system. That is not speaking of the wonderful fostor parents, it is of the system itself and the decisions made on behalf of the children in the system.

From every angle, a parent who abuses a child is a very sad situation indeed. It does not take being in school to have people notice, or to not notice. It is simply one more place that a child has exposure to the outside world, where some people might notice.

More government control over families, because someone besides a neighbor or relative might notice abuse, is not enough reason to balance the abuse that the government will inflict on homeschooling families. Doesn't the government have enough control on us, already? Parents know their children. Schools are full of red tape - see my post below on the 10 year old girl who was arrested for cutting her steak with a knife - in school. The look at their policies, not the child.

What of the abuse inflicted on students in a classroom? How much goes unreported? We talk about that here, on this blog, all the time. When a teacher abuses, the number of children abused by that one teacher far exceeds the number of children one parent may abuse. That is not to excuse the abusive parent, it is just to make the point that putting children in an abusive system is not the answer to abusive parents.

School is abusive to children - in so many ways. Just take a look at society - or spend some time walking around the local mall. We are spiraling downward at a fast pace. In my opinion, it is because parents have gone to work, and put their children in the care of the government - which is a machine, and knows nothing of the heart of the child. It is a godless machine, teaching the children lies about themselves - how they came to be - a random accident.

It's early, and I should have saved this response for later in the day. My thoughts are all over the place. But later I'll be on the "get ready for Christmas" bandwagon, and won't be available to respond. So these are my thoughts - I hope they made some sense.

Deb

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Dec. 18, 2007 - One more comment on presidential elections

I remember the election between Clinton and Dole - 1996 - and the speech that Dole made where his comments made concerning the teachers union. Not sure what was louder, the applause or the booing. I really felt that cost him. I'm never quite sure if candidates are stroking that lobby. I was hoping that was the case with Bush, who had come from a very government free homeschool state.

Huckabee - having voted against homeschooling freedoms - well it is frightening, indeed. We must never take these homeschooling freedoms for granted. I often write that I cannot imagine putting my children in school - I hope I never have to.

Deb

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Thanks for the great post, Spunky! Definitely food for thought...

I wish there weren't so many people who just assume certain things about a person just because they are a minister or say they're a Christian! While being a Christian is a great it does not automatically make you a good President (or contractor, financial advisor or even baker!). We should all examine our choices carefully and most definitely VOTE!

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Very well said Spunky! I was reading the HSLDA reports the other day about Huckabee, and had many questions. This helped me out alot.

It is concerning, hearing Huckabee is so friendly with the NEA. I trust though, that whoever ends up being the next president, that God is in control.

The King's heart is in the hand of the Lord, like rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.
Psalm 21:1

Ali

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Mike Huckabee perfectly lines up with my family on all the issues. And we're homeschoolers. Just so you know, I completely respect your choices and opinions. I just wanted to say that I found Huckabee refreshing in the sense that he doesn't beat around the bush. When questions are asked, answers are given. It also easy to research him on my own and find out all the ins and outs of any given issue. We've been supporting him for 6 months, and plan on sticking with him all the way through. I don't think as homeschoolers, we've had a LOT to do with his rise. I do think his message resonates with many everyday Americans- homeschoolers or not. Thanks for allowing me to state my opinion on your blog!
thinkaware.blogspot.com

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Major General Jerry Curry for President & for Home Schoolers

I found your website while looking up a scripture from Google. WOW! I agree with what you are saying about Huckabee. The man you want for Homeschoolers is Major General Jerry Curry.I have been a friend of Gen Curry for 25+ years. He is NOT a man of compromise. Please check out his website www.Curryforamerica.com and read his book "From Private to General" & his wife Charlene's book " The General's Lady". The book links are found on CurryforAmerica. If you want to know about him, read these books! Blessings & Hope, Marta Please feel free to e-mail me back.

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Thank you so much for your informative post. My husband and I are Huckabee supporters, but after reading your post I will have to pray about this decision. We have done quite a bit of research in our decision, but honestly haven't taken a look at his homeschooling record. I am not quite sure why. We are very adamant when it come to homeschooling freedom and the parents' right to direct their childrens education. Perhaps it was because we first learned of Huckabee via an endorsement of HSLDA. I will definately research him a bit more thoroughly, as wel as look into Ron Paul and his standings.

One thing I did want to bring up, do you think that Huckabee has been endorsed by HSLDA, as well as other homeschoolers, because they feel he is electible? I am not saying this is the correct way to go about deciding on a candidate. We should definately take a stand for our beliefs despite who is running. However, if we are faced with the choice of a God-fearing man who might not understand the importance of a parents' right to educate their child, or a woman who would like to take everyone of our children with her through the gates hells, who should we choose? Or should we choose neither and let our silence show that this is such an important issue (as in fact freedom is!) that we are willing to suffer the consequences of an ungodly leader until a man of God, strong in his convictions of freedom, would step up and lead our country?

At this point, I am not completely sure. I will have to pray about it and seek both wisdom and discernment. Thank you all for your input and all the great info. It keeps me on my toes!

Blessings,
Jasmine

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Who's around him?

Thank you for the information. I never have the time to look up info like this.

Who does he have advising him on these things? Where is he getting is information from? Has anyone tried gaining his ear and enlightening him? It seems to me that perhaps MH would be reachable - maybe - if someone presented homeschooling's perspective to him.

It's great to understand his views on the issues, but what about something pro-active to help change his views?

Just a thought

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Jasmine said "One thing I did want to bring up, do you think that Huckabee has been endorsed by HSLDA, as well as other homeschoolers, because they feel he is electible?"

HSLDA endorsed Hucakbee in the summer and they cited "electibility" as part of their reasoning. It is something to consider. There is a difference between voting for a man as an individual and HSLDA-PAC's decision to endorse him as a candidate. The first says, he is the best of all the choices, the second says he is the best to represents our interest as homeschoolers. It is their decision to endorse him as the best one to represent the right for parents direct the education of their children who should get the endorsement, or none at all. What Micheal Farris does at the ballot box is his decision, but who he publically chooses to endorse is quite a different matter.

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Paula,

I agree with Jacqui, in America we are innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on the state to prove that a parent is abusive, not on the parent to prove that they are not. That's one of the unique characteristics of a free people.

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Untitled Comment

One Mom,

Thanks for stopping by! I actually linked to you in my second post. "Huckabee and Homeschoolers Part 2.

But I totally understand finding the time to look up such information. We all have a part in keeping our liberties to homeschool. I happen to enjoy political policy, so researching this issue comes naturally to me. I am glad the information was helpful to you. I hope all the hopes will help homeschoolers understand the stakes we are facing and the importance of the next election.

As to who Huckabee has advising him. I attempted to check into that. But the fact that he has been very active as Governor in various educational endeavors tells me that this is a bit more than just advisors. He sees a role standards and testing and as I said in today's post, the P-16 seamless architecture that he endorsed requires ALL learners to be included. Unless he does a complete renunciation of such the federal role in education, which is unlikely it is difficult to see him turning around on this issue. He has too much invested as a governor and as candidate to move toward completely disassociating himself with his former policies as governor.

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Untitled Comment

One final thought on who is advising him. I would assume that Micheal Farris has talked with him about these issues. But the fact that he signed the legislation that HSDLA opposed tells me that there are at least a few others who have strongly convinced him that some role for state oversight is necessary in homeschooling.

Had he at least left the measure unsigned we would have seen him standing on principle, but he didn't. He compromised and signed the bill and that's what troubles me greatly.

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Untitled Comment

One Mom said, "It's great to understand his views on the issues, but what about something pro-active to help change his views?"

Unfortunately, the time for that was BEFORE the endorsement. While there is still time to work on changes his views, much of the leverage for lobbying for those changes is lost in the fact that an endorsement has already been given. For Huck to change now, he would risk losing other constituencies that he will need to win. In other words, now that he has the ultra-conservative homeschool vote locked up, he's going to move to the middle and try and get them to vote for him too. Any move to the hard right would be a strike against him and could hurt his chances for the nomination.

So as much as I'd like to believe that Huck would change his mind, there's just too much at risk for him to do so. And even if he did, the believability factor would be tough for me to overcome given how long he's supported the liberal polices of education reformers.

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Dec. 18, 2007 - More Research on Huckabee and Homeschooling

Everyone,

I'm afraid this post does not give an accurate picture of Huckabee's record on homeschooling.

If you want the real story, please read the document at the link below:

http://www.hucksarmy.com/downloads/huckabee_homeschool_record.pdf

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Untitled Comment

I"m hearing from lots of folks that I have distorted Huckabee's record? How.

Joe, in general I don't delete comments that disagree. So you comment is fine by me.

Please let me know where my post is a distortion of Huckabee's record on homeschooling? This is what I've said in my two posts.

Did he sign a bill in 1997 helping homeschoolers in 1997? Yes.

Did he sign a bill restricting homeschoolers in 1999? Yes.

Did he have other options? Yes.

Did he use them? No.

Does he support P-16 liberal education reform legislation that brought about the 1999 legislation? Yes.

Will those reforms hurt homeschoolers? Yes.

Where is the distortion? I'm willing to clarify and point and change if indeed this is I've distorted anything. But so far I've just gotten Huckabee campaign literature, but nothing that refutes the facts of his record.

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Just Read the Document

Spunky, you can spin things a lot of different ways by what you leave out. There's a lot you're leaving out. For people who want to know what it is, I'll repost the link. If they read it and still agree with you that Huckabee is bad news for homeschoolers, so be it... But I don't think they will.

http://www.hucksarmy.com/downloads/huckabee_homeschool_record.pdf

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Joe,

One of the basic rules of argumentation is, he who asserts must prove. You have asserted that I have distorted Mike Huckabee's record, I have acknowledged your argument and asked for evidence, but asserting I left things out and sending me to campaign literature, is not evidence to support your assertion. If you are not prepared to back up your assertion with facts, then it is best not to make the assertion at all.

In good faith I did attempt to open the PDF file but it will not load. If you have it in HTML that would be more helpful. For some reason, my computer doesn't like this PDF file.

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Wanted to clarify

Spunky,
I read your second installment, and realized you thought I was someone I'm not. I had no idea there was a blogger called One Mom who was affiliated with Huckabee. I just chose that name because my own family blog is call "One Mom's Journey".

I just wanted to say that I have read what you've written, and what detractors have said. I think you present good information from a differing perspective. Thank you for offering it. It's these kinds of perspectives that really help me.

Thanks,
A Newbie HSMommy

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Anyone else having trouble with the PDF file?

Spunky has had trouble viewing the PDF file on Huckabee's homeschool record. Has anyone else had this problem? It's working fine for me.

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Dec. 18, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Joe, I was sent a copy of the file and I have not seen where I misrepresented Mike Huckabee. I noted that it was a homeschool father who introduced the legislation, I noted that he was up against Democrats who want to restrict laws. I have given him credit for the 1997 law. I have given him credit for appoint a homeschooler. I have linked to all the same sources as your PDF. But nothing in that document answers why he didn't veto the legislation or leave it unsigned. Nor does it answer the thoughts about the 1998 legislation which prompted the stricter homeschool laws in 1999.

So unless some new information nothing in this document dispells the assertions I have made.

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Dec. 18, 2007 - No problem opening the PDF, just problems accepting the spin

Joe, I was able to open the document. However, I'll be honest and tell you that I think your document is putting spin on an issue, despite your protests that Spunky is doing the same.

The bottom line is that Huckabee could have stood up against the Democratic-proposed legislation, could he not? I'm guessing that someone did a decent spin job to the homeschoolers in Arkansas to convince them that giving up some of their freedoms was the only way to protect all of their freedoms.

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing that from government officials. We're told the same thing about this so-called "War on Terror". What it boils down to is the fact that governmental leaders in the mainstream of both political parties do not operate on principle, nor do they stand on the same.

Why did those AR homeschoolers act like they won a victory in this case? From what I read it is because it was apparently presented as only two choices: Allison's legislation or the "less stringent" one.

There is at least a third option, one which says that we stand on principle and refuse to be pushed around or shot down or coerced.

That's why I'm voting for Ron Paul. The federal government has no business limiting or controlling the education of my children, and Ron Paul is the only one who gets that.

Huckabee might be a nice enough guy, but between this questionable spin you've introduced and the sickening attempts to continue the George W. Bush (Karl Rove) approach in trying to court people of faith with slick soundbites and "buzz words", I'm staying far away from him as a presidential candidate. I fell for that act twice (George W) and refuse to be duped again.

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Dec. 19, 2007 - Huckabee's record on homeschooling

Spunky,
I think Joe was trying to get you to see that the legislation that Huckabee signed that you say is anti-homeschooling was actually supported by homeschoolers in the state of Arkansas, not just the homeschooling father that introduced it. The homeschool association was supportive of it. It does place more restriction, but it was MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the other legislation that was on the table and was a compromise. In the state of Arkansas, it is a miracle in itself to have a conservative and/or Republican in the Governor's office and the state legislature is not a place that is friendly at all to conservatives and/or Republicans. So while in our perfect world he would have been signing a bill that removes all restrictions from homeschoolers, that was not something that was possible at that time in Arkansas. But doing something to keep a worse bill from being there is progress in that kind of environment.

I think you also have to be very careful when you are looking at news reports that come from Arkansas media, especially things like the Huffington article that was referenced and things from the Arkansas Times and other such outlets. The media in Little Rock is extremely biased and cannot be trusted for unbiased information. It is sad that it is that way, but it really is. So if I were presented with an opportunity to believe a Little Rock journalist or Huckabee himself, I would give Huckabee the benefit of the doubt until I could find proof otherwise. I have always found him to be trustworthy and true to his word.

As for the contention that if the NEA endorses him, he must be against homeschoolers, I don't think you can jump to that conclusion. First of all, it was the NEA in one state--and not Arkansas. I got the impression from what I read on that, that he may have even been the only Republican who responded to their questionnaire. And if they did endorse him, so what? He does believe in education and support teachers and schools. That doesn't mean that he doesn't also believe in homeschooling too. There have to be options available. Not everyone can homeschool their children. Do these children not deserve to have a good public or private school? So we can't write off every candidate who is supportive of public schools and teachers. The fact is that public schools exist and they are what we have to work with. I would hope that the candidate who is elected would care about making them the best they can be. Our country depends on it. I would also hope that the next president would also be supportive of homeschoolers as well and I believe Huckabee would be supportive of us and our rights.

On the subject of electability--that has to factor into our decision on who to support in this race. I might think that my favorite candidate is the best one out there and really deserves my support. But if his views are going to alienate 80% of the electorate, he wouldn't be the best person to get the nomination because there would be no way for him to win the general election. We have to be practical when we make the decision who to support in a primary. It has to be someone who stands a chance of beating the other party's nominee. So if that is a factor in the HSLDA's decision for endorsement, then GOOD! It should be.

Thanks for letting me speak up. And thanks for raising these issues. I think it's important for us to be involved and really research things rather than going blindly to the polls.

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Dec. 19, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Daisy, I understand the bill was supported by some of the homeschoolers. But HSLDA opposed it. So there were some homeschoolers who didn't think this was the right way to go as well. I also understand that this legislation was better than the other one introduced. I pointed that out in the post.

If some homeschoolers in Arkansas are happy with a leader who presents only the option of "compromise" then who am I to argue with them? But I don't want a leader who says these are the only two options. There are other options. There was the veto power or at least standing on principle and letting the bill go through unsigned. Huckabee did neither. He signed it over HSLDA opposition.

I have not quoted the Huffington Post, so I'm not sure why you're cautioning me there. The information came from the HSDLA website and the blogger who talked to Huckabee directly. The news reports were quoted by that blogger. It was Huckabee that said that this legislation was because of the 1998 legislation called Smart Start. To me that is a double negative for homeschoolers. Start Start and related P-16 reforms were not good for homeschoolers in 1998 and the related revisions in 1999 just made it worse. (For those who have not read it Part 2 explains the connection.)

I have not said that Huckabee is against homeschoolers only that he has managed to convince both groups he's "one of them." He's pulling a fast one on somebody. The most liberal group as I quoted are the ones who seek to regulate homeschooling, their endorsement of Huckabee means that they find in him a person sympathetic to their side. I don't want a man in the White House who thinks "vertical" is the best approach to education.

Public education reform is not done in a vacumn. As I said in my second post, ALL learners must be include for the system to work. I totally understand that public school is not going away. But it is a STATE issue. Making it a federal issue complicates the situation for homeschoolers greatly. Huckabee has signaled that he sees a place for the federal government in education. As I'll show in my next post (hopefully today) this is not a positive for homeschoolers.

As far as electibiliyt, it was HSLDA-PAC that brought up the subject of electibility and the fact that they thought Hillary was the one to beat Huckabee.

Incidentally, the NEA also endorsed Hillary Clinton. It is the first time they endorsed a Republican and a Democrat in the primary. That tells me that at least in education they see both people as positive for them. I think that is very telling.

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Dec. 19, 2007 - Huckabees Blog

I posted my concerns on his blog. Maybe we all should and send in letters to him.
http://www.mikehuckabee.com/?FuseAction=Blogs.Home

His blog is moderated, but at least he'll get the message.

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Dec. 19, 2007 - Huckabee and Homeschoolers

I do agree with you that Huckabee needs to be watched for his stand on homeschool issues. However, I do believe that in pretty much every other area he matches up closely with what we believe and are looking for in a president. Is there another candidate who comes close? It is a shame, but it is often the case in our political system that we are forced to choose "the lesser of two evils". This one issue is not one that should stop us from voting for and supporting a Christian man who stands up against abortion, and stands up for faith-based issues. We also need to make sure we are supporting someone who is strong enough to keep Hillary and Obama out of the presidency.
We need to pray for the voting population and for Governor Huckabee, maybe someday we won't have to support the "lesser of two evils".

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Dec. 19, 2007 - Untitled Comment

I am excited as I can possibly be to read this!! I have recently come to the same conclusions and here is the letter I just wrote to homeschoolers on my list...

As you may know our daughter has turned 18! Her interest in her new voting rights has involved us in the political process and given us a reason to check thoroughly into the republican candidates. I wonder how many homeschoolers realize the info we found and would like to hear… we have been comparing the 2 Christian candidates on every issue but as far as homeschooling alone, we find that Huckabee does not support our freedoms as he should. In addition to the issues in the article below I have also found that he lowered the compulsory age from 6 to 5 years, he is all for schooling qualifications for teachers, and the teaching of certain mandatory subjects…

Huckabee leads Arkansas to become the first state to REDUCE homeschooling freedom …
First Huckabee signs a law helping homeschoolers, then signs a law further restricting them.
Consequences of Huckabee’s law:

Arkansas is now one of only 12 states to impose a deadline for beginning home schooling or requiring parents to provide advance notice to public school officials of their decision to do so. Because of this restriction, parents who encounter intolerable conditions at the public school, such as imminent danger to the safety or welfare of their child, will have to wait at least 14 days before withdrawing the child to begin home schooling or else face truancy charges for unexcused absences during the 14-day waiting period. No such restriction exists for parents who decide to immediately remove their children to attend a private or parochial school in Arkansas. This raises serious issues regarding the right of parents to direct the education of their children and equal protection of the law as guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Another discriminatory provision in H.B. 1724 states that any home schooling student who refuses to participate in the state testing program shall be subject to prosecution for truancy. Public school students refusing to participate in state testing would not be subject to truancy prosecution.

Prior law required parents moving into the state mid-school year to provide a written notice of intent to the local superintendent within 30 days. The new law requires parents to provide a written notice upon moving into a different school district during the school year, even though notice was given in their former district.

Also, No Child Left Behind…
“The federal No Child Left Behind Act is often misunderstood and unfairly maligned as a total federal intrusion,” Huckabee said. “As long as the states are allowed to develop their own benchmark exams to determine the manner to create standards … there’s a value of having a national effort to at least set high standards.”

Just a few reasons we have decided to support Ron Paul in this race. Dr. Paul said in his intro to the Family Education Freedom Act, “Parental control of child rearing, especially education, is one of the bulwarks of liberty. No nation can remain free when the state has greater influence over the knowledge and values transmitted to children than the family.”

At his website… http://www.ronpaul2008.com/homeschoolers/compared-to-other-candidates/

Another comparison among many… http://homeschoolersforpaul.blogspot.com/

And finally a letter I like to share… http://www.lewrockwell.com/fisk/fisk32.html

I’d love to find a way to let other homeschoolers know what we have found! We are excited!

Adriane

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Dec. 19, 2007 - Disconcerting...

I find this post somewhat disconcerting. I don't think the whole story is being told.

I would encourage individuals to check out the facts for themselves. I can tell you that Huckabee is probably the most homeschool-friendly candidate on the Republican side, right up there with Ron Paul. However, Huckabee has demonstrated an ability to work **with** other people to get things done for the good of the constituents, something which Ron Paul is lacking in.

I happen to know Gregg Harris and family personally, and they are staunch supporters of home education (Gregg authored "The Christian Home School" amongst other titles, and has spoken internationally on home education). I also know they are avid supporters of Mike Huckabee, even after doing extensive research into his record. If a recognized leader in the homeschooling movement sees fit to support Mike Huckabee, I have my doubts about the validity of the complaints leveled against him on this blog.

For more self-directed research, I would encourage all to read the following document:
http://www.hucksarmy.com/downloads/huckabee_homschool_record.pdf

God bless.
--Dan W

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Dec. 19, 2007 - Somebody didn't read the conversation, apparently

Dan,

Your link is not spelled correctly. But more importantly, that document has already been introduced into the conversation and several of us have responded to it already.

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Dec. 19, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Dan,

I am also friends with the Harris's and I respect them as Christians who are also passionate about homeschooling and their endorsement of Mike Huckabee. Our friendship will endure long after this campaign season.

The document you have mentioned does not address any of the concerns I have raised. I have linked to and acknowledged the same documents and points in Mike Huckabee's favor. However, they do not explain why he chose NOT to veto this legislation or at least leave it unsigned. It also does not address the 1998 legislation which prompted the 1999 revisions on homeschool law.

Further, today I posted about Huckabee's confusing position on the role of the federal government in education, which appears to be very different than the stance of HSLDA. It is my desire to have a President who will not compromise my freedoms, not just as a homeschooler, but as a conservative Christians who believes in limited government and the tenth amendment.

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Dec. 19, 2007 - Huckabee on Homeschooling - The rest of the story

Here's a link to a new home-schooling mom's website who posts a bloggers conference call with Mike Huckabee inquiring as to what actually happened regarding the signing of House Bill 1724.

http://onemom.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/huckabee-and-homeschoolers-the-rest-of-the-story/

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Dec. 20, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Anonymous,

I actually linked to Kerry at One Mom in Part 2 of my post. In that post I explained why Smart Start and the complete education reform package of Huckabee is a double negative for homeschoolers. The P-16 "seamless transition" that Huckabee promotes is a HUGE problem for homeschoolers. HSLDA recognized that fact when Clinton proposed it and it will be a problem if Huckabe proposes it.

Please read Part 2 of the post here and you'll understand why Huckabee's explanation only makes things worse for him not better.

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/TOSPUBLISHER/446789/

Homeschoolers need to stand against this education reform for the sake of our children. I don't want to move toward the socialist planned economy of Europe, do you?

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Dec. 25, 2007 - A word from Huckabee's Director of Family Policy

I was Huckabee's director of family policy for his entire 10 years in office. As such, it was my job to help protect the rights of homeschoolers. This was a very high priority for us. Not only did he appoint the state's first homeschooling mom to the state board of education, but he and we vigorously fought to preserve the rights of homeschoolers.

The fact is, Arkansas was and is a very lopsided state when it comes to Republicans and Democrats. He was always greatly outnumbered, which makes any accomplishment pretty amazing. When he signed the bill in question the momentum in the legislature seemed to be shifting against homeschoolers. We had to do something to prevent drastic regulation.

He could have gone down in flames for some symbolic show of principle, but our actions were strategic. In Arkansas, the veto is meaningless because a simple majority can override it.

The number one homeschooling lobyist in Arkansas is Jerry Cox with the Arkansas Family Council and he will back up my perspecive. He is firmly in Huckabee's camp. Homeschoolers would be very safe in a Hucakee administration.

From Chris Pyle, Little Rock Arkansas

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Dec. 26, 2007 - Interesting Huckabee post

Thank you for your series. I think there's time to apply this scrutiny to all viable candidates.
As for Ron Paul and HS freedom, yes he is pro-personal freedom and I like him for that (why isn't he pro-fair tax then???), however, speaking of naivete on foreign policy, that would be him. We'll have no HS freedom when our lives are threatened by Islam b/c of his unrealistic, isolationist, blame America, and conspiracy theory laden viewpoints.
Also, consider your source when reading articles (i.e. Huffington Post-ultra liberal). I think it reasonable and imperative to drill Huckabee on this issue and let him know what we expect on this issue. However, he wasn't always for the Fair Tax but became educated, which is a massive thinking shift concerning the entire structure of our system, very pro-freedom and financially supportive to HSchoolers. With that being said, I think it's reasonable to press him to clarify any decision on the importance of our freedom issue and he shows that he can obviously be educated for practical, pro-freedom measures. Remember, in politics there's always more than just one side and the dynamics of a decision. Besides, HS freedom will be more impacted still at the state level no matter who is president.
Also, I know he spoke candidly about the rapist situation and it is more complicated than him just "being set free" and he regrets the way he worded a particular letter to this man. Again, consider your sources. He wasn't the Gov. who made this man eligible for parole to begin with and there's an either/or quality to this situation just like the either/or to the HS act he signed. Do I like it that the NEA of N.H. supports him or the "unity" rhetoric? No, but let's continue to ask questions and pursue the whole truth.
Again, thank you for an article that promotes such discussion.

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Dec. 26, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Welcome to the discussion Chris,

Every legislature has hostile members who want to regulate homeschooling. This year Arkansas SUCCESSFULLY defeated a measure that attempted to restrict homeschoolers and they did so with a Democrat legislative body and governor. So while the line that Huckabee had no choice may sell in Arkansas, homeschoolers around the country know that these bill can be and are routinely defeated in other states. The fact that Huckabee couldn't get the job done in Arkansas against Democrats is a problem for many who realize that US Congress want to do the same thing.

He could have also stood on principle and left the bill unsigned signalling that he realized how wrong this bill was, but he didn't even do that. He signed it and managed to convince homeschoolers that despite HSLDA's opposition this was their only choice.

Further, it is not that homeschoolers will be "safe" under Huckabee. His education policy is unconstitutional as he is calling for an INCREASE in federal involvement in education. That is what my second and third posts were about. Huckabee promises to "leave homeschoolers alone" but education reform is not done in a vacumn, and any attempts to reform it WILL affect homeschoolers.

I'm glad you're solidly behind Huckbee. That's your choice as a citizen. But his policies and his actions are NOT good news for homeschoolers. It would be in your best interest to understand P-16 education reform and its national and international nature, before you say that homeschoolers will be safe under a Huckabee adminstration. I'm not buying it.

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Dec. 26, 2007 - Untitled Comment

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Dec. 26, 2007 - Huckabee and Homeschooling

I was referred to this site by The Old Schoolhouse Magazine. Thank you for writing an article that addresses a candidate with regard to that which is very near and dear to my heart -- educating my children.

I was wondering if you might be able to provide any information on Ron Paul with regard to this issue. Mostly, however, I am wondering why NO ONE has mentioned Alan Keyes since the Values Voter Debate in September. I just looked on his website and he is in fact still running for president. There is an obviously principled man who will fight for what he believes is right and will not sway from his beliefs to placate a special interest group. I would be very interested to hear what you have to say on these two gentlemen and their stance on homeschooling.

Thank you,
Elizabeth

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Dec. 26, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Chris, I acknowledged in my post Huckabee's appointment of a homechool mom. But there's another man in the Huckabee adminsitration who has arguably much more influence on education policy in Arkansas that is NOT exactly a pro-homeschooling.

Dr. Ray Simon who was the head of the Arkansas Department of Ed from 1997-2003 said in a Times article on homeschooling,

"To be sure, many public schools — and their baleful unions and wretched bureaucrats, their rigid rules and we-know-best manner — have done a lot to hurt themselves. But as the most committed parents leave, the schools may falter more, giving the larger community yet another reason to fret over their condition. "A third of our support for schools comes from property taxes," says Ray Simon, director of the Arkansas department of education. "If a large number of a community's parents do not fully believe in the school system, it gets more difficult to pass those property taxes. And that directly impacts the schools' ability to operate."

This was the man who was in charge of education in Arkansas when the bill was passed requiring homeschoolers to wait 14 days before taking their child out of school. Clearly, he sees homeschooling as threat to funding and any legislation that stems the flow back home is a problem.

Dr. Simon was appointed by Governor Huckabee.

So I'm glad he appointed a homeschool mom it's a nice perk for Huckabee, but education policy was decided more by this man. Simon is now the Deputy secretary of education in the Bush adminstration, I wonder how he will factor if Huckabee gets into office? Simon's policies are NOT about keeping homeschooling "safe." He realizes that we are threat to funding and when there's money involved homeschoolers just can't compete with the lobbyist in the education beuaracracy.

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Dec. 26, 2007 - Homeschoolers for Huckabee should look at Ron Paul

Personally I think that anyone who is considering Huckabee should take a look at Ron Paul - he's the best candidate for homeschoolers. :)

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/homeschoolers/

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Dec. 26, 2007 - trying to decide

I appreciate the posts on Huckabee. I also appreciated many of the comments on the other candidates. Personally, I liked Tancredo, but I guess that's not an option.

I think checking out Huckabee more stringently is an excellent idea. I also think most of us tend to be naive on how the intricacies of government do work. It is entirely possible that Huckabee had to compromise what he truly believed was best regarding homeschooling in Arkansas in order to avoid a worse scenario for homeschoolers.

If I have learned anything at all about politics, it is that they are in tough decisions settings everyday.

One of the poorest things to come down the pike is the ability to tack on unrelated laws to various bills. Many times a president or governor must strike down a good bill because there are bad legislations attached that would pass with the bill. To me, this is an absolutely insane situation we have allowed ourselves as a country to get into - each law or bill should have to stand on its own and not be piggybacked. Of course, this situation is then used by the opposing team to make the president or governor look like scum. A pro-homeschooling measure may have attached to it measures which would remove funding for some child- or elderly-related program. By voting in favor of it, the homeschoolers would be happy, but the children or elderly of the state would suffer. So the president or governor votes against it, sparing the children or elderly, and it is then touted as his being opposed to homeschoolers. Tacking on unrelated legislation to bills only hurts all members of society and prevents any real progress from being accomplished. It would be nice if we could get a majority of lawmakers to disallow such piggybacking.

I have a friend firmly trying to get me in Ron Paul's camp, but I'm not comfortable with him, though I get mailers from his camp every 2-3 days...he obviously has some money behind him. I think some of his ideas are great - I'm glad he's pro-life and pro-family, but let's face it - many presidents have been both since Roe v Wade and it hasn't been overturned yet. Getting a pro-life president is not going to guarantee an end to abortion, though I certainly wish it were that simple.

Ron Paul is scary to me on other topics of great importance. He may say he wants to pull all troops from all foreign shores, and while that sounds wonderful to have all our fellas and gals back on American soil, the truth is, for our own protection, we must maintain military personnel around the globe. Also, the president is not king and sole leader of America - anything he wants to do must pass through Congress and the Senate. He cannot declare war without their approval, nor can he bring troops home without their approval. So you might get a great president in office whose hands are tied because what he wants to do won't be passed. I think we tend to forget that in determining who would best be president.

Ron Paul may well want to send all the illegals back to Mexico. I would love for that to happen....but again, Congress has to agree with him.

I'm also bothered by Ron Paul because as a strict "vote only on what's in the Constitution" candidate, he has become extremely popular with the ilk of our society. There was a recent newspaper article on a brothel in Nevada that was raising money for Ron Paul's campaign. Why? Because he cannot vote against legalizing gambling, illicit parlors, legalizing marijuana, or any other immoral activities because those are state issues for him. I'm all for states' rights, probably more so that most people I've met, but I do think there are certain activities that we as a country should oppose. Why do we think the president should pass a law stating marriage is between a man and woman, but then let the states decide about drinking, gambling, and brothels? How is it that one is a national issue and the rest are state issues?

Another concern I have with Ron Paul would be his stand on our support of Israel, a point which never seems to come up in presidential conversations. However, it is plain in Scripture that those countries who stand with Israel will be blessed, while those who oppose her will not. America has been Israel's ally for many years. Ron Paul may or may not be interested in helping her. He's not big on foreign policy - his stand regarding Israel would be important to me.

Ron Paul says he is in favor of homeschooling....of course he can say that because he would never vote on that issue. He would say it is up to the individual rights of the states to decide their own laws on homeschooling. He won't pass any national laws one way or the other, but he won't stand in the way of Arkansas or any other state that wants to impose strict rules governing our abilities to homeschool. It's not a national issue - it's a state issue. So having him as president would not necessarily be helpful to homeschoolers.

I confess I am at a total loss as to who to vote for. I have never been so frustrated! I firmly believe it is my right and duty before God to vote, yet I constantly find myself voting for the lesser of the evils. Why are there no solid choices anymore?

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Dec. 26, 2007 - Huckabee

I know we'd all like to always stand on principal 100% every time but there are times to be pragmatic. For example, here in MI we have reduced the number of abortions by a significant amount by passing laws for waiting periods, informed consent, etc. Some, on principal, think we should not promote these laws because they still allow for abortion. However, the chance of making it 100% illegal is nearly zero. So you do what you can to save as many lives as possible.

I see what Huckabee did in the same vein. True, he could have vetoed the 2 week period, but it might have actually made it worse for homeschoolers. Sometimes you just have to do what you can even when it's not 100% perfect. We live in a fallen world and the political world is about as fallen as you can get!!!

As far as HSLDA is concerned they will fight ANY restricition, even if it's not that big of a deal. They just are trying to keep us from a quick ride down a slippery slope. But a 2 week waiting period doesn't sound like a huge deal to me. I am pretty sure there is a waiver if the circumtances warrents it. Most parents would want at least 2 weeks to gear up to homeschool anyway. I would think a huge decision like pulling your kids out of ps could, would and should warrent 2 weeks of planning and prayer. Obviously any parent who put their kids in ps in the first place was OK with it to begin with, so I can't imagine why suddenly to have to keep them there 2 more weeks would be so difficult.

My kids have never been in a public school other than when they went with me to vote. I would not want a law like that in MI, we have a fantastic homeschooling envonment here, but it really would not effect most homeschoolers. I know of only a few who took their kids out of public schools. I think most either never put them in, or simply wait until the year is up and then not send them back. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that it is just not enough of a big deal to me to keep me from voting for Huckabee. I'm not sure a president has much to do with homeschooling anyway, unless, of course you consider the ones who WERE homeschoolerd! LOL

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Dec. 26, 2007 - Huckabee

Thanks for the article!!!

As a resident of Arkansas, I have been distressed at the support for Huckabee. One law that he passed as governor was to make it illegal to smoke with a child in the car. This is an offense that you can now be pulled over for. He also has made parents liable for obesity of children. How? They are tested for obesity at school. Did they take out the candy machines, soda machines, improve the lunch menus for the 1/3 of the day that the child is out of the hands of the parent? No.

Do I smoke? No. Do I think that parents should be responsible for children's good eating habits? Yes.

Should government decide who is obese, abusive, mentally competent, competent enough to homeschooling their children? No. Each time we pass laws which allow government to make decisions for us, we lose rights to govern and be responsible for ourselves.

Truly, isn't it sad that we need more than the 10 Commandments, the constitution and the bill of rights to govern ourselves?

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Dec. 26, 2007 - Untitled Comment

"Should government decide who is obese, abusive, mentally competent, competent enough to homeschooling their children? No. Each time we pass laws which allow government to make decisions for us, we lose rights to govern and be responsible for ourselves."

Exactly. Scary, indeed. Thank you for an informed opinion from Arkansas, Anonymous.

Deb

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Dec. 26, 2007 - In response to kapandpen - trying to decide

[Quote:] I think checking out Huckabee more stringently is an excellent idea. I also think most of us tend to be naive on how the intricacies of government do work. It is entirely possible that Huckabee had to compromise what he truly believed was best regarding homeschooling in Arkansas in order to avoid a worse scenario for homeschoolers.
If I have learned anything at all about politics, it is that they are in tough decisions settings everyday. One of the poorest things to come down the pike is the ability to tack on unrelated laws to various bills. Many times a president or governor must strike down a good bill because there are bad legislations attached that would pass with the bill. To me, this is an absolutely insane situation we have allowed ourselves as a country to get into - each law or bill should have to stand on its own and not be piggybacked. Of course, this situation is then used by the opposing team to make the president or governor look like scum. A pro-homeschooling measure may have attached to it measures which would remove funding for some child- or elderly-related program. By voting in favor of it, the homeschoolers would be happy, but the children or elderly of the state would suffer. So the president or governor votes against it, sparing the children or elderly, and it is then touted as his being opposed to homeschoolers. Tacking on unrelated legislation to bills only hurts all members of society and prevents any real progress from being accomplished. It would be nice if we could get a majority of lawmakers to disallow such piggybacking.

[Response:] The sense of tolerance you are describing here is exactly why we’re at where we are at. I wonder what the Federal government would have done if we had all stood up to the Court ruling on prayer in school back in the 60’s and said “NO. You will not take this from us – we don’t care what you think.” It’s always the Christian’s that “give a little” to the point that they give up everything and run into seclusion. Look at the mess we’re in because of this line of reasoning you’ve described. There comes a time – when you draw a line and you dare them to knock the battery off your shoulder.

[Quote:] I have a friend firmly trying to get me in Ron Paul's camp, but I'm not comfortable with him, though I get mailers from his camp every 2-3 days...he obviously has some money behind him. I think some of his ideas are great - I'm glad he's pro-life and pro-family, but let's face it - many presidents have been both since Roe v Wade and it hasn't been overturned yet. Getting a pro-life president is not going to guarantee an end to abortion, though I certainly wish it were that simple.

[Response:]Before Roe v Wade, every single state had a law against abortion and with one Federal ruling at the Supreme Court level, they assumed a jurisdiction that was never granted them. Understanding how the law works in this matter, the only solution (offered only by Ron Paul) to this problem is to return it to the states. Ruling in the opposite direction of Roe v. Wade at the Federal level would fly in the face (aka Stare Decisis) of all the case law that has come since Roe v. Wade to support it. New cases would be rejected because SCOTUS would defer due to lack of jurisdiction. In other words – they would remand the cases to the States because there is no authority in the Constitution for them to rule on this subject matter. (Which is how Roe v Wade should have been handled.)

[Quote:] Ron Paul is scary to me on other topics of great importance. He may say he wants to pull all troops from all foreign shores, and while that sounds wonderful to have all our fellas and gals back on American soil, the truth is, for our own protection, we must maintain military personnel around the globe. Also, the president is not king and sole leader of America - anything he wants to do must pass through Congress and the Senate. He cannot declare war without their approval, nor can he bring troops home without their approval. So you might get a great president in office whose hands are tied because what he wants to do won't be passed. I think we tend to forget that in determining who would best be president.

[Response:] The President, under the War Powers Act of 1917 (aka Trading with the Enemies Act) has derived his executive powers for war and war decisions. The fastest way for Ron Paul to eliminate the over sizing of the Federal government is to declare that the War is over. Since that act was passed, the only thing that the President has had to do to enlarge his power is to declare War on something and then create Executive Orders to support the war effort. Social programs have derived their authority from this same act based upon LBJ’s declaring War on Poverty, to Reagan’s War On Drugs. We just need an honest man – like Ron Paul – that has already said he does not want to run our lives to declare that all these wars that have enlarged the office are over.

[Quote:] Ron Paul may well want to send all the illegals back to Mexico. I would love for that to happen....but again, Congress has to agree with him.

[Response:]Ron has the best policy on this more than all the other candidates. Remove all the handouts and benefits, and they will leave on their own. If they still stay, it’s probably because they have become a contributing member to the society. As a member of society, it will financially benefit them to learn the language and customs and adapt. Currently, we provide a way for them to have a nation within our nation with no incentive to go through what is needed to become a positive member of our nation. Some local laws that are affecting this do work…
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hie8QIPV64yp8jC6Q5U4mseJXFnAD8TMCE6G0

[Quote:] I'm also bothered by Ron Paul because as a strict "vote only on what's in the Constitution" candidate, he has become extremely popular with the ilk of our society. There was a recent newspaper article on a brothel in Nevada that was raising money for Ron Paul's campaign. Why? Because he cannot vote against legalizing gambling, illicit parlors, legalizing marijuana, or any other immoral activities because those are state issues for him. I'm all for states' rights, probably more so that most people I've met, but I do think there are certain activities that we as a country should oppose. Why do we think the president should pass a law stating marriage is between a man and woman, but then let the states decide about drinking, gambling, and brothels? How is it that one is a national issue and the rest are state issues?
["Response"]Are you kidding? Listen to yourself – “you are bothered by the fact that Ron Paul wants to run the government strictly according to the Constitution?” I stand incredulous at that comment. Aside from that – can you honestly say that you think that the Federal government has been doing a good job handling these things? Do you think we could ever send enough money to a central power that would go out and evenly and adequately enforce laws and regulations governing these issues across all the United States? The apostle Paul was faced with this same issue concerning some of the Churches he had set up on his missionary journey’s. Members complained to him about other members and their licentiousness. Paul was content to “give them over to a reprobate mind” which in and of itself inflicts its own punishment.

[Quote:] Another concern I have with Ron Paul would be his stand on our support of Israel, a point which never seems to come up in presidential conversations. However, it is plain in Scripture that those countries who stand with Israel will be blessed, while those who oppose her will not. America has been Israel's ally for many years. Ron Paul may or may not be interested in helping her. He's not big on foreign policy - his stand regarding Israel would be important to me.

[Response:] I share some feelings with you on this topic and my concern is Biblical considering that nations that bless Israel will be blessed and those that don’t will be cursed. Somehow though, I’m wondering if supporting their surrounding neighbors 3 to 5 times more than we are them doesn’t cancel itself out. I’m wondering if somehow our “broker status” hasn’t failed yet? Have you seen it work? Do you ever see it working? At first I was reticent on his position on this, but I’m inclined now to agree it would play out better if we turn them loose and do whatever they decide they need to do. Let it be clear though – Ron Paul is not weak on national defense. He’s very strong on this issue and I offer the link to the following well written piece that backs this up. http://noelgibeson.townhall.com/g/5fbb2d80-95b3-49d7-90e8-bdcd89d4b323

[Quote:] Ron Paul says he is in favor of homeschooling....of course he can say that because he would never vote on that issue. He would say it is up to the individual rights of the states to decide their own laws on homeschooling. He won't pass any national laws one way or the other, but he won't stand in the way of Arkansas or any other state that wants to impose strict rules governing our abilities to homeschool. It's not a national issue - it's a state issue. So having him as president would not necessarily be helpful to homeschoolers.

[Response:] One of the main issues that Dr. Paul is extremely well versed on is Individual Rights and just how they are related to Property Rights. This is probably the biggest issue facing our nation and is the very stem of what all the laws and governing factors are concerning all of our freedoms. Even more than Bush – I can assure you that Ron Paul will appoint a strict constitutionalist to the bench. For the states to be a part of the Union, they are bound by the Bill of Rights in which any INDIVIDUAL seeking relief will find refuge. This is one of the biggest things Ron Paul can do for us as President. (For a fuller background on this – please read the small book written by Frederick Bastiat called “The Law”. It’s one of Dr. Paul’s favorites.

[Quote:] I confess I am at a total loss as to who to vote for. I have never been so frustrated! I firmly believe it is my right and duty before God to vote, yet I constantly find myself voting for the lesser of the evils. Why are there no solid choices anymore?

[Response:] I hope that I have diminished your loss as to who to vote for. For once – I don’t have to hold my nose to vote. I hope you don’t either anymore.

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Dec. 26, 2007 - Untitled Comment

I am thrilled to see this educated debate continue and to hear from so many concerned homeschoolers! As you can tell from my above post, I am also a Ron Paul supporter. I want to encourage all of you to research further all the issues presented here before deciding. None of us has presented the whole story…there is just not space.
Here are my thoughts about some of the questions concerning Dr Paul’s policies… In studying further than the surface on the issue of foreign policy I find that he does advocate a very strong military. He advocates a strong national defense as is outlined in the Constitution. Yet, there is a proper way to do this (a very biblical method) that was not followed when going into the current Iraq war. I agree with Dr. Paul that there was no compelling need to go to war. He did not support this war and says…

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/paul7.html

As far as occupying foreign soil, I agree with Dr. Paul that this is just not possible with our current debt. I think this is something Congress could work with quite well. I also agree that it does not sit well with the foreign nation we are occupying. We are holding back the good the country can do for itself if we would just leave. We are obstructing their sovereignty. This is not isolationism at all but as he says we are confusing non- intervention with isolationism. Dr. Paul points to Vietnam in this instance and shows what has happened since we have begun trade with this nation.

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Ron_Paul_Iraq_not_Nazi_Germany_1202.html

This brings me to our relationship with Israel. I think Dr. Paul’s respect for Israel and its sovereignty is admirable. He has pointed out instances in which we are holding them back in the area of peace talks and further points out that they are certainly capable militarily of protecting themselves if need be. It is the basic right of each nation given by our creator to govern themselves. So unless we want to move toward a one world government , we should stay out of the affairs of other nations. Unless, of course they are threatening our national security and I believe Dr. Paul has made it abundantly clear that he will rise to the occasion if such is the case. Here is what he has said about Foreign aid to Israel…
…remember, the Arabs would get cut off, too, and the Arabs get three times as much aid altogether than Israel. But why, why make Israel so dependent? …they give up their sovereignty. They can't defend their borders without coming to us. If they want a peace treaty, they have to ask us permission. …We interfere when the Arab leagues make overtures to them. So I would say that we've made them second class citizens. I think they would take much better care of themselves. They would have their national sovereignty back, and I think they would be required then to have a stronger economy because they would have to pay their own bills.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block88.html

Something else I think should be just briefly addressed... As Christians, it is our wont to choose what we think is right, and then impose that on everyone else for their good. In the area of politics this translates to choosing the candidate we think will do this for us. On the other side of this issue though is the great care the founders took to make sure that one religious denomination would not rule over the others – hence the 1st amendment which binds the government to make no laws concerning any establishment of religion. Though it would be great if everyone was a believer and a homeschooler, even just a moral thinker, this is not the case. When we choose rightly, things go well for us. When we don’t, there are natural consequences. I know that Huckabee believes and lives out that those in power make the rules with very little regard for the social compacts that govern us. This is not the case with Ron Paul. He carefully follows the document and its limiting factors which he has seriously taken an oath to defend. I agree with the above post when you say “…a reprobate mind which in and of itself inflicts its awn punishment.”
And I don’t want to leave out Alan Keyes! We have been following him for some time and I did vote for him in the last caucus. He would make a great cabinet member. We need men like him in positions of authority!
Overall, I see a return the constitution as very necessary--- and doable. After all, it is based on the Bible. Just as biblical principle works today, so will the Constitution.

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Dec. 26, 2007 - For anonymous on Dec. 26, 2007 - "Huckabee"

Also, there is no reason that we should ever have to compromise our freedoms. And it is our responsibility to choose someone to represent us that feels the same way. I agree entirely with HSLDA on this. They are absolutely right not to back any restrictions on our freedoms. We need to remember that any such regulation sets a PRECIDENT for further regulation. Let’s not be flip about this just because right now it doesn’t affect you.

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Dec. 27, 2007 - Untitled Comment

RPIsGr8 and Kapandpen:

[Quote:] Another concern I have with Ron Paul would be his stand on our support of Israel, a point which never seems to come up in presidential conversations. However, it is plain in Scripture that those countries who stand with Israel will be blessed, while those who oppose her will not. America has been Israel's ally for many years. Ron Paul may or may not be interested in helping her. He's not big on foreign policy - his stand regarding Israel would be important to me.

[Response:] I share some feelings with you on this topic and my concern is Biblical considering that nations that bless Israel will be blessed and those that don’t will be cursed. Somehow though, I’m wondering if supporting their surrounding neighbors 3 to 5 times more than we are them doesn’t cancel itself out. I’m wondering if somehow our “broker status” hasn’t failed yet? Have you seen it work? Do you ever see it working? At first I was reticent on his position on this, but I’m inclined now to agree it would play out better if we turn them loose and do whatever they decide they need to do. Let it be clear though – Ron Paul is not weak on national defense. He’s very strong on this issue and I offer the link to the following well written piece that backs this up. http://noelgibeson.townhall.com/g/5fbb2d80-95b3-49d7-90e8-bdcd89d4b323

*****************

In this post on Huckabee, I discuss my concerns per Ron Paul and Israel: http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/TOSPUBLISHER/447536/ I agree that our present admin. supports Israel's enemies (while standing by as Israel's ally), and even pressures her to give up land to them. Not good, in my opinion. However, Ron Paul "leaving them to themselves" vs. his actual attitude towards Israel are two different things. I didn't leave links to articles where this is evident, because I quick google of "Israel Ron Paul" brought up enough that it led me to believe he was anti-Israel. I felt that people could easily find this attitude on their own. This is an issue for me. Not just because I want to support Israel so I don't get cursed, but because God has put a love in my heart for Israel that I can't even explain. I get so angry with the propaganda and lies against her.

So what to do??? I'm praying and keeping my eyes open. I do not know who should be in office. I believe that Jesus is returning for His bride very soon (recognizing, of course, that not everyone holds that position on scripture), and that yet - we need to be responsible for our lives while we watch and wait for him. I believe it holds us in perfect balance between being here, and waiting for Him - for we take what we do here very seriously, while recognizing that "we're not home yet," and so holding loosly to this place where we are strangers and aliens.

Judas was a zealot, and his concerns led him astray. He betrayed our Lord, once he figured out they were not on the same page. Jesus, on the other hand, answers Pilot: "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world." (Jn. 18:36)

Someone commented over on my blog (here: http://homeschoolblogger.com/Pattycake/446641/) "This reminds me of one of the recent debates where the candidates were asked about a certain subject... what would Jesus do? Huckabee's response was something to the extent of Jesus knew better than to run for office." I'd have to say, we will find nothing pure in politics in America. We will always have to hold our noses while we vote, period. There is ONLY finding the least of several evils (speaking in cliche - not calling Huckabee evil). This means, when all is said and done, I may STILL vote for Huckabee. I really do not know yet. I so appreciate these postings by Spunky, and the lively debate here. This comment right here: http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/TOSPUBLISHER/445968/?#c892757 reveals a mindset in Huckabee that I feel is a real concern. Big government stepping into areas they simply have no right in.

What to do? Regardless that we live on a planet where we are strangers and aliens - I'm not home yet - my choice - my vote makes a difference. Praying for wisdom from on high, and appreciating all the input.

Deb

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Dec. 27, 2007 - Non-interventionalism

This concerns Ron Paul as well. Non-interventionalism sounds like a great thing to a whole lot of people in this country, after the war debate we've been through these past several years now. The country has been split, not so differently than during civil war times. Except now, it's a war of words and votes. But the votes and decisions can lead to just as much bloodshed, at the end of the day.

Non-interventionalism. Just stay out of it. Let the countries do what they are going to do with each other and leave us alone. I think we tried that in WWII before we intervened. Hitler was of the mindset that he really wanted the whole world. We needed to realize that it WAS our problem too. A shipload of starving Jews was turned away from our soil. (http://www.charismamag.com/display.php?id=1271) We would not intervene. This was happening all over the place. Nobody was wanting to intervene! Those who would not were quickly losing their own countries and hailing the dictator.

We must not be fooled by this rhetoric. There is a worldview out there that will not stop with Israel. It is Israel first - then the world. All must bow to Allah. Just like what Hitler wanted. Should we worry though? Won't God will protect us? I guess that depends upon how you interpret scripture. I do not believe He will continue to protect the USA. I don't even believe the USA is named in biblical prophecy. Except for the part that states "And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against [Israel]. There we are. The good old US of A. We will one day rise up against Israel.

Well, however one interprets biblical prophecy, one can see in history past that NON-intervention does not work. NOT acting becomes a decision. There are that some churches will not address (scriptural issues) so as to not offend, and stay ecumenical. I have found that this works until the issue comes knocking on the door of MY church. Then, suddenly, it must be addressed.

This happened in our nation in the late 30's, early 40's. We would not get involved. Non-intervention. But we could not hold that position. Nobody can, and if they think they can, they are fooling themselves. History does repeat itself. That's why we supposedly study history in school. But we keep making the same mistakes over and over again anyhow.

Deb

Edited by Pattycake on Dec. 27, 2007 at 6:10 AM

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Dec. 27, 2007 - Reply to Untitled Comment by Pattycake

Ron Paul is absolutely NOT anti Israel. There are some people supporting him that are, but he is not and has affirmed emphatically so.

Please understand this.... We are all victims of a pathetic social studies curriculum. Neither you nor I are qualified to make decisions about foreign affairs. We don't have Intelligence agencies working for us, we are probably trained in an entirely different specialty and honestly - none of us spends the time necessary to make informed intelligent decisions about anything over seas. And this is what kills me.... According to the Constitution, We, the citizens, were never intended to directly elect the President of the United States. The congress is supposed to elect him. They are the only ones who know each other up there. This is why we have so much corruption and lobbying. ALL POLITICAL POWER (decision making for the people) IS VESTED IN THE CONGRESS. ONLY CONGRESS HAS THE AUTHORITY AND POWER TO DECLARE WAR. It doesn't matter one bit how Ron Paul "feels" about Israel. If Congress wants to declare war, it is only his JOB to Execute it no matter how he feels.

This is what a Republic is. The only people we are supposed to elect are our representatives. The founding fathers never intended for this fiasco of a government we have now. All that is left is instability which is exacly what the money (your wealth) grabbers want.

As such......
Ron Paul is the ONLY candidate running with the intent to restore (legalize) the Constitution. Ron Paul is the ONLY candidate working to restore us to a system of just weights and measures - not only mandated by the Constitution, but for you and I - as a matter of our faith. (If you want chapter and verse, I have a whole sermon on this. In fact, here's a link that can explain the whole thing better than I
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3051024550497129264&q=ohio+world+church+irs&total=1&start=0&num=100&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

)

As a Christian, and especially as homeschoolers, it is imperative that we arm ourselves and our children with the information nececssary to remove us from the oppression we are currently under.

As far as your Non-inteventionalism post is concerned, Ron Paul is explicit and has the BEST plan for strengthening our military. There is no strength is spreading them out all over the world in over 170 countries. Please tell me Why are we in Korea? Japan? Germany? We need to bring them all home - and put a good number of them on our Southern border. RP has made it clear that if we are ever are attacked or an attack is imminent, he will execute his constitutional duty. And if congress declares the war, then the people are declaring the war - and that is just the way it should be. Following this principle, we'll never have a mess like Vietnam and now Iraq again.

Whether or not the Messiah is coming for his Bride soon or not does not vary our directive to occupy till he comes. As part of that, it is our duty as citizens of His kingdom to place those in authority over us who will limit the authority of the state so that we can live under the authority of our Lord. Saul was warned that the king would take our first fruits and our first born. It's amazing how true this is and has been borne out in our country.
From my perspective, our choices for a just and moral leader have been limited in this race to one man - Ron Paul. Please tell me where Huckabee measures up.

Thanks.

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Dec. 27, 2007 - Untitled Comment

RPisGR8,

I respect your right to your opinion. I've read the rhetoric on both sides, and have come to another conclusion. I hope you can respect my right to my opinion.

thx,
Deb

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Dec. 27, 2007 - Deb,

So in your view, we should take care of Israel before our own country? Honestly I think people are overreacting a bit to Dr. Paul's position here. I think he realizes how bad things have become for us as a nation and that those things need to be fixed before we can support anyone. The Lord also teaches us to be good stewards and that is where giving needs to start. You cannot simply go by a feeling toward Israel when you talk about committing our resources. I have no less a love for Israel and its’ customs and people. I don’t see any anti-Semitism when I read anything Ron Paul has said or written. I think he is just being practical. Also, you are saying that there is enough “buzz” about Ron Paul being against Israel that you are just going to accept it. Why not look further than that? Seems you are also accepting rhetoric. Why should they need to ask us permission each time they want to do something for themselves? Yes, there are times when our national security or interests are being threatened and we must intervene. You are taking this WAY further than I intended and as I said Dr. Paul has no problem with that.

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Dec. 27, 2007 - <i>Untitled Comment</i>

No, I did not say we should take care of Israel before our own country. I don't know how you got that out of what I said. Israel weighs heavy with me. RP has said things that are of great concern in my opinion. I've seen backpeddling - it doesn't make up for the rhetoric. Where does being concerned with Israel mean not being concerned with our own country? Why does it have to be one or the other? I won't say more about Ron Paul - unless someone else comments something new that I feel requires a response. This is about Huckabee. People mentioned RP in ways that I felt I needed to respond to. I have.

What makes you think I haven't looked far enough? It may take pages of discussion between us for you to draw that conclusion.

Deb

Edited by Pattycake on Dec. 27, 2007 at 8:30 PM

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Dec. 27, 2007 - Huck

On the surface I liked Huck, then as more & more came out and is coming out about his record as Gov I'm starting to not like him as the potential Prez of the USA. As a Christian and citizen who would like to have a strong conservative in office I feel it is my responsibility to not just look at my brother Huckabee and his religious beliefs but also if he is the man I'd hire to work for me. Compared to the others running on the GOP side I have to say he's not the guy for me.

I hope that Christians just don't look at him and say he's a Believer and stop at that point. There is more to choosing our next President then just readily accepting what we hear in 15 second sound bites that put one in a positive light.

On the republican side I don't think Huck can or will be able to win over Hillary or even Obama. We have to take that into account and pick someone who can defeat Hillary or Obama even if it means they don't hold our same religious views. I'm speaking of Christianity here & not other religions.

I'm not certain who I'm cheering on in the GOP at this point, however I know that a Hillary ticket may cause me to pray alot harder for our country, family and safety. She just plain scares me.

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Dec. 28, 2007 - Importance of Israel

I am glad to see people speaking of the importance of the support of Israel in our country's prosperity and safety. Although I am generally opposed to foreign policy spending, that does not apply to Israel. She supports us in the UN 96% of the time. More so than any other country. And though she has the power of The G-d of Israel to protect her, in our "spiritual" speak the most important has been left out of most of these posts and that is to be blessed by G-d involves blessing Israel. Scripture speaks of that truth. In response to an earlier post that Ron Paul may or may not support her, he's actually made it clear that she's on her own. That was done at the Values Voter debate. We cannot make HS the only issue. If we do not have our safety (and G-d's Blessing), we don't have the freedom of movement in conducting our lives.

I am a libertarian/republican and desire a constitutionaly sized Gov. However, Ron Paul seems to forget that the main function of the Fed. gov. is protecting our borders (and protecting our 2nd amendment right to protect our home and community from invaders). Thomas Jefferson had to go OUT to sea to fight Muslims who were plundering our ships. So this is not the first time we have dealt w/a religion that desires you dead, converted, or enslaved. And Israel is fighting the same people and G-d, according to His Word, expects us to be a blessing to her.

Also, speaking of congress, people should be just as intensely scrutinizing local officials, inc. state and county. They actually have much more impact on our daily lives than the president. Demand more from them. Expect protection of liberty and safety for our borders. Lets' throw in securing our borders to stop Islamicists from coming through, too. Especially any of you from the Houston, TX area. We are influential in our communities and congressional reps. I'm sorry to say that the majority democrat congress and small margin of republicans in the senate is not pro-freedom and that needs to change, then we can demand real conservatism from the republicans.

As a side note-I do believe there are places we could safely remove our troops like Germany and Japan at this point. But just imagine what would happen to the S. Koreans? Not to mention fighting Islamicists around the world. I don't want to have to do it in our streets and homes like England, France, Germany, Denmark and Israel. How much homeschooling can you do in a bunker? How about getting on a bus to go downtown to a local art exhibit or theatre production for your children's education and not know if that one will be blown up?
Our HS freedom is intricately intertwined w/our personal safety and moral climate, both which come from G-d's Blessing by our right actions.
This is a complex issue and we must be vigilant both towards our gov. and our enemies.

Rachel

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Dec. 28, 2007 - Concerning our borders.

There is no stronger candidate on the border issue or the 2nd Amendment. Ron Paul just picked up the endorsement of the Minutemenman in Iowa. Please see link
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071227/NEWS/71227027/-1/SPORTS01

He's the only candidate that affirmed that founding intent of the 2nd amendment is to protect us from an oppressive government.

Pattycake, I concede that pure logic will never win out over sheer determination.

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Dec. 28, 2007 - Huckabee

Seems to me this is NOT a restriction on homeschoolers, but rather a restriction on public schoolers. What I get out of the legistlation is that the public school wants your kids and you are not going to be able to just pull them out at will. If you are a homeschooler you have nothing to worry about. In other words, parents ought to think twice before enrolling their kids in public school.

Also, I don't think that a two week period is that bad of an idea anyway. How many parents who are not really "homeschoolers" like you and I pull their kids out on a whim just because they are upset that little Johnny or little Susie is having trouble. They can't just having people pulling kids out and then putting them back in over and over. Any parent who is serious about homeschooling would probably not mind the two weeks. A parent who is simply "hot under the collar" might just realize that they were being rash if given a few weeks to think about it.

Also, I am not sure I would want Ron Paul. I have heard some strange things about the man. I don't have documentation, but dh claims he has recieved donations from known neo-nazis and has willing kept the money. Now that's a bigger compromise than a two week waiting period to pull a kid out of public school. Just my humble opinion.

Politics aside I hope each and every one of you had a blessed Christmas and will have a blessed and fruiful new year!!!

~Diane

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Dec. 29, 2007 - Supporting Israel/Entangling Alliances/etc

A few comments if I may. My apologies in advance if it sounds like I've had too much coffee (which I don't even drink!) And I will preface this by saying I am a Ron Paul supporter.

In regards to supporting Israel. What I believe has been missed in this blog conversation is what 'support' really means.

When the Fed Govt 'supports' something or someone, all that means is that they have taken our money from us and decided how to spend it. The Fed Govt that 'supports' Israel in this way is also the Fed Govt that 'supports' abortion rights. The Fed Govt that 'supports' Israel also 'supports' countries who would be considered enemies of Israel.

The Fed Govt is only supposed to be protecting our individual rights, granted to us by our Creator, to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

That means I - as an individual - am supposed to have the right to support Israel if I choose. I can start an organization to support Israel. The church I belong to can support Israel. All the Fed Govt is supposed to do is protect my ability to do this - or not do this. They are not supposed to make this decision for us.

Either you believe the Federal Govt is there to protect your individual, God-given rights - or to give you your rights. The Constitution says it's the former. Bono, the UN, Rick Warren, Mike Huckabee and all the other presidential candidates - with the exception of Ron Paul - believe to one degree or another that it's the latter.

So the position of Ron Paul regarding Israel is - you should be able to determine where your money ('support') is spent - not the Fed Govt. That is completely different than being 'anti-Israel.'

By the way, the other way the US 'supports' Israel? We make them ask us before they can defend their country... before they enter into peace treaties. I also believe they have to purchase their weapons through us or with our permission.

We want our sovereignty as a nation - don't we think Israel should have the same right?

Second point is in regards to Dr. Paul's views on foreign policy. The Constitution is clear on what we can and can't do - and who can and can't do what. Thomas Jefferson said we should have a foreign policy of peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none.

Instead we prop up dictatorships like Pakistan and send them lots of money (more 'support'), until our interests change or until our involvement causes resentment (1979 - hostages taken in Iran; Pakistan right now). Then we go to war with them and remove their leadership (Iraq) - and start all over again.

We should set the example for the world. We should be friends with as many as possible. We should have free trade (not managed trade like NAFTA). And while we should have a strong defense (which we currently do not have), we should not be forcing our p-o-v down others throats at gunpoint.

And to be told that 'if we don't fight them there, we'll end up fighting them here' is use of the classic 'either/or' fallacy. The same thing was said about Vietnam, and probably many other wars. And yet now we trade with Vietnam. They worked out their own problems when we got out of the way.

Not to mention that we can't afford to be the police of the world. The Iraqi war is a key reason why true inflation is over 10% right now.

How about a third option - we start following the Constitution, defending our own borders, deal with those who are already here who oppose us (the fact that 'they' are already here also reveals the fallacy of 'either/or'), and try to fix the log in our own eyes before even considering dealing with the problems of others?

You might be interested in the words of slain former Prime Minister of Pakistan Benazhir Bhutto (Parade magazine, January 6th, 2008 issue - conducted Nov 2007). When asked what she would like to tell President Bush, she said, "Your (U.S.) policy of supporting dictatorship is breaking up my country. I now think al-Qaeda can be marching on Islamabad in two to four years.”

She believed US-backed military rule encouraged terrorism in Pakistan.

Listen to all the responses from the presidential candidates after she was killed on 12/27/07, and there was only one who said the exact same thing - Ron Paul.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/018067.html

It's not important whether Mike Huckabee is a Christian or a nice guy - his overall track record and his campaign has shown him to be a part of the system promoting 'more of the same' - he said himself that he would do what 'he thinks is right.' That's different than following the Constitution.

And that includes how a Huckabee presidency would adversely affect homeschoolers.

And in regards to HSLDA supporting Huckabee - whether it's because he's a Christian, he was overtly pro-homeschool at one time, or because he's 'electable' (whatever that means) - my understanding is that Michael Farris of HSLDA is also a supporter of the status quo. That doesn't necessarily make either of these gentlemen bad - but I believe it makes them wrong. And it makes Huckabee a bad choice for President.

Dr. Paul wants parents to be the sole decision-makers about how their children are taught. He wants to put an end to the Dept of Education, which would completely returning education to the state and local level. And as long as there is a Federal Income Tax, he wants homeschoolers to be able to receive tax rebates for school expenses. And he has tried to get legislation passed to do these things. How can someone be more 'homeschool-freindly' than this?

Re the comment in the blog above mine that Ron Paul kept $500 given to his campaign by a neo-nazi. Here's Paul's own response (watch the entire 2min 55sec):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcLSLGXypMY&eurl=http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/2007_12_19.html

Can I suggest that instead of hearsay, one discover what the man has said himself?
www.ronpaullibrary.org
www.ronpaulaudio.com
www.lewrockwell.com

One final thought (thanks if you've hung in there this far!). There was a comment made somewhere on one of these three blogs defending Huckabee and disregarding Paul based on the Values Voters Debate. Huckabee gave all the 'right' answers - Paul the 'wrong' ones.

And yet Paul gave the constitutionally correct answers (what he COULD do as President) in spite of the audience he was speaking to. While Huckabee gave answers on how he feels (what he WOULD do as President), even if those answers weren't constitutional.

And the 'yes-no' portion of the debate was irresponsible on the part of those sponsoring the debate. If you look at why Paul often answered differently than the other candidates, it was because constitutionally, the President would not be allowed to do what the other candidates said they would do.

And since this debate was about what the candidates would do as President, their knowledge of (or lack of) the Constitution should be a major concern to anyone planning on voting for someone whose sole responsibility is to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States.

So help me God.

I think I'm done. At least for now. :)

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Dec. 29, 2007 - Huckabee is Supportive of Homeschoolers

Huckabee is supportive of homeschooling, he may not be wild about them, but he is most definitely supportive! That bill does not sound terrible as you are making it out to be. 14 days notice is not that much more time in the public school, only ten more days of school, but if there is holiday it would not even be ten more days of school! Mike Huckabee is a wonderful conservative man. (Mind you, I have not just said "he was a Baptist minister so I don't need to look into his record more".)

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Dec. 29, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Rachel - yes, amen, and right on.

Wade - there are other ways to support (or not support) Israel. His vote against charging Ahmadinajad with genocide (for stating Israel should be wiped off the map) is only one way he didn't show support - and that had nothing to do with my money. http://tinyurl.com/2th238 Also, RP is very wrong, in my opinion, about where Iran is headed (and very near there) with the help of Russia.

ANY candidate, I don't care who you're talking about, is going to have to have a realistic idea of Islamic ideology. In my opinion, most voters do not understand the ideology. I've spent hundreds of hours speaking with Muslims - moderate and more extreme. I believe that most Americans buy the smokescreen put up - "why they hate us" - and do not really get it. I do not believe Ron Paul understands the ideology. I do feel I have come to understand a thing or two in this arena, with the reading, studying and discussions I have had with many people. Certainly, Israel is in the mix, and to them - if Israel survives in it's present state, it means the Koran is wrong - and that must not be allowed. That is why "Israel must be wiped off the map." Some will say "Oh, that's old - most moderate Muslims do not believe that now." Some of the most revered writings are for NOW, as they state "in the last day." What, in the last day? “You will indeed fight against the Jews and you will kill them to the point where the rock and the tree will say: ‘O Muslim! O ‘Abdullaah (slave of Allaah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.’ Except for al-Gharqad for it is from the trees of the Jews.” This message is still being preached all over the mid-east, and here as well (read "Jihad in America"). When Arafat signed the peace treaty (and received the Nobel Peace Prize!!), he stated "this means the same thing to us as with Mohommad and his Quarish tribe." WOW. An amazing moment in time. Except he was speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Mohommad slaughtered his Quarish tribe two years into a 10 year treaty. To me, many politicians are among those who actually had hope - and believed - this was it. Those who understood the ideology were not fooled.

By the same token, those who understand the ideology realize that it is "Israel first, then the world." In a sense, supporting our allies is supporting ourselves as well. When we stand with allies, we stand against a common enemy. "Why they hate us." I do not believe RP understands this. Does Huckabee? I am not sure, but I doubt he does either.

Rachel is right - do we want to homeschool from an underground bunker?

Deb

Edited by Pattycake on Dec. 29, 2007 at 8:23 AM

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Dec. 29, 2007 - Untitled Comment

'That bill does not sound terrible as you are making it out to be."

It was HSDLA that called the bill UNCONSTITUTIONAL and a violation of the fourteenth amemdment. If our elected leaders can just blatantly disgregard the constitution then why have one at all?

HSLDA opposed the bill partly on those grounds.,

I keep hearing that Huckabee is "supportive" of homeschoolers, but no one has shown me where his decisions or policies reflect such support.

His appointment of a homeschool mom to the school board does not negate the policies that Huckabee has endorsed. Which as I have demonstrated are a violation of the tenth amendment.

Further, Dr. Ray Simon, the head of the Arkansas Department of Ed. (appointed by Huckabee) openly worried about how homeschoolers were leaving the system and taking funds that were badly needed for public education.

Huckabee also opposes school choice, unless the choice is for PUBLIC schools. It's right there on his website. "I am a strong supporter of public school choice." How much of a choice is it, if you can only choose public school?

So while many want to believe that Huckabee is a friend to homeschoolers the evidence just doesn't support the assertion.

Even his support of a constituional amendment for life is a recently held belief. He told John Hawkins in an interview a year ago, that this was not a federal issue but should be left to the states.

Thankfully, conservative homeschoolers are realizing that Huckabee is not all he claims to be. And with the recent statement by the former director of the HSDLA-PAC telling us that he was not even informed of the decision to endorse Huckabee until AFTER the decision was made, you have to wonder what's actually going on.

Here's the link where I talk about the recent HSLDA-PAC information. I just posted it yesterday so some readers following this thread may not have seen it.

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/TOSPUBLISHER/451770/

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Dec. 29, 2007 - Israel..troops around the world

Just some other rambling thoughts here as I have been reading threads....

When I initially commented about supporting Israel, I did not mean monetarily. I was speaking politically, as one government to another. Israel "supports" many of our decisions - that doesn't mean she's sending us cash. I think Huckabee would see the importance of continuing to support Israel politically, I'm not so sure about Ron Paul. "Let them deal with their own problems" isn't exactly the support I'm hoping for in a candidate...

I do agree that we are funding entirely too many other nations. I am opposed to feeding the world when milk is $4 a gallon in my own country. I am opposed to policing the world when it takes 15 minutes for a 911 response in many parts of my country. I'm opposed to our telling other countries how they should run their countries - to some extent. If those countries have only known oppression, then of course we should be willing to share with them how to form a government where the people are not in abject poverty and living in fear on a daily basis, if they want our opinions.

We cannot realistically pull ALL our troops from ALL points on the globe and still believe that we can adequately defend this nation. Any idea how long it takes to deploy soldiers, weapons, tanks, ships, etc., etc.? A very long time, especially if we are talking about the other side of the world. I know, I know - why would we ever need our troops on the other side of the world, right? Remember WWII? Japan and Germany are not just a day's travel, militarily speaking. And, let's not forget that there's a lot of truth in realizing people want to bury their heads in the sand and not get involved in other countries committing genocide....until suddenly they're killing us. I'm sure most of you have read emails about how people didn't get involved when they came for the Jews, because they were not Jewish. They didn't get involved when they came for the French, because they weren't French. They didn't get involved when they came for the blacks, because they weren't black. And so on. Until they came to kill the white American guy....and there was no one left to protect him.

In many respects, if we are to survive as a nation, we must be ready to help defend other countries from madmen like Hitler and Sadam Hussein. Does that mean I want to throw billions of tax dollars out the door? No, but I think there should be some careful consideration and appropriate spending to secure our safety from all directions. That necessitates having troops around the world. Not that they have to be in harm's way, but simply as a military presence, in case they are needed at a moment's notice.

Why does Israel "ask our permission" before doing some things? To make sure we are not going to turn our back on her. She has the military strength to blow her neighbors off the map, and really, many times I've thought she should just go ahead and do it and have some peace for a while. But, then I remember my Bible, and there won't be true peace over there until Christ rules and reigns.

Israel doesn't want to be economically isolated from the rest of the world, nor does she want to be militarily isolated. If she angers another major nation, she wants to make sure she's got at least one major power standing alongside her. America has been about the only major world power to stand consistently with Israel. They don't want to lose us. Depending on what they might do from a military aspect, it might cause us to withdraw support (I'm again speaking governmentally, not necessarily financially). That's why they confer with us. Has it always been to their benefit? Obviously not, as they continue to give over land and allow their borders to have skirmishes which cost them the lives of their soldiers. However, it has kept them from having to defend themselves against many nations at one time, which is probably the only reason they are willing to come to compromises.

I don't know that Huckabee knows a lot more about foreign affairs than Ron Paul or any other candidate. I agree with one of the comments that states we are all lacking knowledge in foreign affairs. But I know I sure wouldn't want Obama or Hillary making military decisions. Which brings me to another concern.

Notoriously, democrats will vote for their candidate whether or not they like him (or her), whether or not they think they'll do a good job, whether or not they think they'll help the country. There's a mindset among them - "I must vote for the democrat." And they do.

Then there's the rest of us. I'm pretty sure we outnumber the staunch democrats. But many people, such as myself, used to be dyed-in-the-wool Republicans. Sadly, that doesn't mean any of them, presidents or other elected officials, are going to do the right thing after elected. So we've started looking at 3rd parties. The problem with this is what happened when Ross Perot (interesting that Ron Paul has the same initials!) ran for president. The Republicans were split - and the democrat won. That was helpful, wasn't it?

Christians get all hung up on one or two key points, and they vote because their guy is right on the money on their key points. But he could be ignorant on many other points, or downright wrong, and they don't care. He's right on their pet points. I see this happening already. And it's going to work....for the democrats!

I don't believe the Republican Party will pick Ron Paul. (Not to throw in conspiracy theories, but I'm pretty sure RP has no ties to the Tri-lateral Commission or to the Masonic Lodge and he's probably not interested in a One World government, so he won't be picked by the Republican party.)

So, he'll either have to be picked up by a 3rd party or be a write-in candidate. Theoretically, in our system of government, a write-in candidate has just as much chance of winning as anyone else. Reality, though, proves that if you are not on one of the two party tickets (Rep or Dem) you will not win a presidency.

What would be really awesome and would really shake up our Senate and Congress, is if Ron Paul did win the presidency as a write-in candidate.

However, that won't happen either, because even though I believe a majority of the citizens in this country are "conservative" minded politically speaking, they won't get out and vote!

The Democrats are good at going out and dragging in illiterate, 4th generation welfare-mooching people and getting them to vote. They can even raise the dead - I lived outside Chicago for many years - it was amazing how many dead people voted in Chicago elections!

So, for many people who are disgusted with the Republicans not keeping their word, they have to decide, "Do I waste my vote and choose a 3rd party? Do I help the Democrats by splitting the Republican vote? Or do I vote for a Republican, hoping that will be marginally better than life under Hillary or Obama?"

By the way, I see a lot of talk about Huckabee being a Baptist minister at one time - does anyone know what denomination Ron Paul hangs his hat under? Does he have any profession of faith? Just honestly curious - absolutely no slander intended in the question.

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Dec. 29, 2007 - Two suggested readings

Keep in mind that the primary election is particular is the time to vote for the candidate you want. That's how someone like Ron Paul can win. If you feel compelled to vote for the lesser of two evils, do that in the general election in November.

I refuse to vote like that anymore in any election, and John Quincy Adams may have explained it best:
"Duty is ours; results are God's." Voting for the candidate you believe is the best candidate is doing your duty - trying to vote who you think will win, or Stalin over Hitler is not.

The greatest example we have - Jesus was alone on the cross. The people had 'elected' Barabbas. But He fulfilled His 'duty' anyway. And no one understood the impact that was going to have.

And from everything I've read, Israel has to ask our permission before defending themselves. It's not optional.

Agree or disagree with Dr. Paul, it is his campaign that is forcing people to consider issues at their root, not on the surface. And anyone who cares about discovering truth (which should include all Christians) should be appreciative of this.

Let me point you to two people who also disagree with Paul's approach on several points but are still supporting him. Hopefully this will give you a better idea as to why you might want to consider Paul.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/scheuer7.html
Michael Scheuer - former senior terrorist analyst for the CIA, and author of the books "Through Our Enemies' Eyes" and "Imperial Hubris - Why The West Is Losing The War On Terror" ("None of bin Laden's reasons for waging war on the U.S. have anything to do with our freedom, liberty, and democracy." A review of the book "Hubris" for context is at:
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Eric_Margolis/2004/09/12/626001.html)

http://newswithviews.com/Stang/alan19.htm
Alan Stang - radio host, author, foreign correspondant. His credentials are listed at the bottom of the article. While a Christian, Stang doesn't mince words, especially when it comes to Christians he disagrees with. Make sure to read the whole article - his disagreements with Paul and why he still supports him are in the second half of the article.

If you find Stang's article of interest, his archive file can be found at www.newswithviews.com

Thanks again for letting me share my two cents!

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Dec. 29, 2007 - Paul's Statement of Faith

I think it may have been posted earlier, but since it was asked again, here is Paul's statement of faith:
http://www.covenantnews.com/ronpaul070721.htm

I've been following Dr. Paul for several years, but since announcing his candidacy, I have watched him even more closely. I have listened to most every speech posted on www.ronpaulaudio.com I've read a number of his positions on www.ronpaullibrary.org and www.lewrockwell.com

And while some make sure you know they're a Christian by telling you, I have been amazed at the Christian example Paul lives out in how he handles his life and by what he stands for.

It matches perfectly that fact that he believes the US should set the example for the world, not force our beliefs on others.

Just one example of living out one's faith - you very rarely ever hear him knock an opposing candidate by name. He will answer questions about individuals when asked, but even then he almost always brings it back to the difference in policy and where he stands.

And he does not tell people what they want to hear (tickling ears) - he tells people what he believes is correct (truth, according to what he believes).

Remember too - one of the things about God is that anyone that chooses to follow and obey Him according to His word thru Jesus will be blessed. If you choose not to follow Him, that is your choice.

And that is also one of the foundations of this country. While founded on Judeo-Christian principles, we are not a Christian nation. (if we were, we would be a theocracy) Individuals are allowed to believe, say and do what they choose, as long as they do not infringe on the same rights as others.

If we force our beliefs on others, we are no better than Islamic terrorists. If the federal government determines your neighbor can't do something, that also means they can determine what you can and can't do.

That means the Federal Govt needs to stay out of issues that should be determined by the states and local government - something we have a lot more control of. They are there to protect our individual life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. And doing that includes having a strong defense.

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Dec. 29, 2007 - So much is said by their families.

One thing that is often said in politics is that you should leave the personal life of the politician out of it. I disagree. Referring to the adage that if you can't rule you household, how can you rule the country, I can't say enough about how impressed I am with Dr. Paul's family. Aside from it's sheer size, from what I understand, they are all professional upstanding and contributing Christian members of the community.

Comparatively, I've read where David Huckabee was removed from his boy scout troop when they found out he hung a dog, slit its throat and stoned it.
Worse than that, Gov Huckabee fired the county prosecuter that was going to press animal cruelty charges against his son.
In my opinion, this is the kind of dirty backroom (smokefilled) politics that Arkansas is known to produce. I've even read that the rapist/murderer he pardoned was a (distant) cousin of Clinton. My skin as crawling as I write this. I have not heard Huckabee deny or defend any of this. If this info is incorrect - please let me know.
Here'se a link about his son from Newsweek.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/78241

To sum it up, you can tell a lot about a man by his family. You have to remember, that when you invite the man into the whitehouse, you bring the rest of his family with him.

I've yet to see some solid dirt stick to RP. It's rare when a Godly man like this comes along. Let's pray for our country's sake, he makes it.

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Dec. 29, 2007 - What belongs to the state?

Okay....new set of questions here. I guess I'm having trouble understanding how some ideals would play out in real life.

What are RP supporters, Huckabee non-supporters, Constitutionalists, etc., hoping for in the new administration? Should abortion be federally banned or left up to the states? Are you going to move when your state won't ban abortions?

Should homeschooling be federally supported or left up to the states? And are you willing to move to a new state when yours determines homeschooling is illegal, or do you expect RP or Huckabee to step up to the federal plate and make a federal law protecting it? It's not outlined in the Constitution, so how could he do that?

Do you want a federal position on what constitutes a marriage as one man and one woman or do you want that left to the states? Are you going to move to another state when yours gives homos the same rights to marriage in every way as heteros?

What if your state legalizes drugs and prostitution? Will you stay or move?

What happens when your state bans spankings? Move? That's not outlined in the Constitution, so the president shouldn't vote to protect that federally, right?

There could be a lot of moving going on.....

If we bring all our troops back to US soil -which Congress will never go along with, but for the sake of the question...- who determines how big the military is and what we'll fund? The president? Congress won't go for that.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that often there are presidential candidates with great ideals....but there's no practical way to implement them.

In reading our founding documents, there is a way to start all over. The people of the country can vote out the entire Congress and Senate in one fell swoop and vote in a whole new set. That idea has often appealed to me - what would America be like if we went back to having people who were not lifetime Senators and Congressmen, but who actually only served their term and then LEFT to live under the laws they created? That's how it should be. If it were, I think picking presidents would be considerably easier and it wouldn't be so much like electing a king, which is what I feel like we have been reduced to doing.

By the way, I do appreciate all the links that have been brought up through this thread! And I'm glad to see there are people out there trying to make informed decisions. I get very frustrated with talking to people who vote, but have no idea what their person stands for.

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Dec. 29, 2007 - huckabee is antihomeschoolers

The Huckster is proNEA that's all we need to know. For all of you that seem confused, look at Ron Paul's record and stop the confusion, you will be responsible before God for your votes and there is simply no excuse for not voting for the person who best follows the law of the land, the constitution and the law of freedom...Ron Paul.

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Dec. 29, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Thank you Wade! Great info and very articulate. Couldn't have said it better, though I would have liked to...:)

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Dec. 30, 2007 - Ron Paul's Statement of Faith

http://www.covenantnews.com/ronpaul070721.htm

[quote]I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator.[/quote]

Jesus condemned the Pharisees who constantly acted religious before men, but whose private lives showed something differently. Likewise, I have much more respect for someone like Ron Paul who quietly lives out his faith in a way to be a shining light, than someone who keeps yelling "look at me, I'm a Christian" and whose life is full ethical violations and seedy situations.

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Dec. 30, 2007 - Mike Huckabee recently named Richard Haas (the President of the CFR) as his advisor on foreign policy.

This link tells it all.
http://www.nationalexpositor.com/News/840.html

Even worse, I found out that all of the candidates except for Ron Paul are members.

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Dec. 30, 2007 - Response to KapAndPen

Is this post a joke?
Abortion is FEDERALLY FUNDED currently. There is no hope of "Overturning" Roe v. Wade - it has too much case law based upon it. Our only hope is to have it remanded to the states due to a lack of jurisdiction. No - I wouldn't move because my state didn't outlaw abortion. I'd fight to get them too.

Yes I would move to another state if homeschooling was outlawed. So would every real homeschooler I know. They would do a lot more in fact.

Concerning the drug issue - I answered you specifically on that in a previous post on this blog. The War on Drugs is an utter failure at the federal level. It's only something that can be done at the local level.

Protect spanking - at the federal level? Is this a bill you're going to try to get passed? I could go for an Amendment to the Constitution on that. One of our rights that was assumed at the founding not enumerated. It's also an establishment of Religion too - so maybe it's already covered.

I agree with you on the Congress issue. I'm not sure if you are aware of it though - but all the candidates at the Congressional level usually have some ties to the political apparatus. Nominees are usually picked from the top down (party recommendations.)
I'll be happy to start with the President though.

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Dec. 30, 2007 - Summary

Spunky, I have to say that this has been truly enjoyable and maybe the discourse hasn't come to an end, but there has been no real exchange for the last few days now. Looking back over this and realizing the amount of work and effort put in by everyone is greatly appreciated by my family. It has really sharpened our skills at debating these issues in person with others and helped to know what they are thinking before it even comes out.
It's been incredible to see how the truth eventually comes out and just crushes the lies and false prophets. If these are the "last times", as many of our Christian friends believe, maybe Ron Paul is our Jonah outside the gate. I'm hoping and praying that our people listen and wake up. I'm not putting RP on a pedestal, he has his faults just like I do and Jonah, but I really do believe he's at least messenger (or comparartive OT Judge) I know the Lord usually sends one just before he brings down his judgement. I'm very concerned about what happens on the other side of this election.

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Dec. 31, 2007 - Kapandpen

Kapandpen - I really appreciated your last two comments. You brought up some excellent points and questions. Homeschoolers are such independant thinkers, and your posts help to reveal that there is no bandwagon for homeschoolers to jump on. Homeschoolers and not bandwagon types of people - they are independant thinkers. We all need to ask the many hard, intelligent questions and vote for the person who fits the bill per our own convictions and concerns before the Lord. I do appreciate your comments.

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Jan. 1, 2008 - Huckabee

I must confess I did not read all the posts b/c of the length and the fact that I'm tired. But I would like to point out the fact that Mike Huckabee never received a theology as he's claimed. Follow this link for the full story: He has no theology degree. Imagine that. He lied. Do you think he will again?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59222

So that might make Sunky referring to him as a minister incorrect - not her fault b/c he has misrepresented himself. Also for those interested, the HSLDA has actually endorsed Huckabee. I emailed my protest, especially in light of their criticism of the guy back in 99 when he basically let the Legislature more difficult to homeschool in his state. If you're interested in a candidate that (Virginia) Ginny Birt Baker refers to as "the homeschoolers' best friend," check out:
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/homeschoolers/endorsements/
Happy New Year everybody. God bless.

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Jan. 1, 2008 - re: whole new set of questions

Have been wanting to respond to kapandpen since the post, but 'life happens.' Happy 2008, by the way.

I don't believe for an instant that the Fed Govt getting out of what is supposed to be states' rights will solve everything. In fact, it will most likely lead to a whole new set of problems. But that's in large part due to the fact that we've gotten so far off track.

Most, if not all, of us don't know what liberty and freedom really are. We haven't experienced it the way the Constitution laid it out. We only look at things from the perspective we know.

That's why we often hear something like, "If the Founding Fathers could see what we've done to the Constitution, they would be appalled." We don't have their perspective - and they're the ones that wrote it.

(As Christians, we do that with the bible too - look at it from our modern day perspective rather than from its 'original intent)

We also don't know what it's like to have to be involved in the process.

An example. I was 13 when Roe vs Wade was passed, so I don't have any idea what it's like to try and get my state senators and my local rep to try and pass more restrictive legislation on a state level - or elect someone who will. I've grown up expecting Reagan, Bush, Bush II, etc to nominate Supreme Court judges, or hearing that 'before the law can change, peoples' hearts need to change.' Blah blah blah. Nothing's changed in all these years.

If the decision was returned to the states, not only would it be constitutional (the law), but you and I would now have a much better chance to help shape agenda.

Isn't it easier to go see your local rep then it is your Congressman, who is often beholden to special interests anyway?

Schooling is a great example. Eliminate the Fed Govt/Dept of Ed, return public ed to the states with an emphasis on the 'local,' and more parents would be involved - would have to be involved - in the education of their children.

Perfect? No. Big debates, in fact. But much better than the Fed's 'one size fits all' "No Child Left Behind" approach.

And if it were under local control, and you didn't like what your school board was doing, run for a seat yourself... work on getting those in office out. Right now, it ultimately doesn't matter - because it's all directed by the Fed Govt/Dept of Ed, and groups like the NEA.

The other debate would be what falls under 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,' our God-given rights the Fed Govt is supposed to protect. I would like to think that homeschooling would fall under that description, so if a state tried to restrict it, the Fed Govt could step in and say no - constitutionally, you need to let the parents decide.

So which would be according to the law of the land? That's the big question.

My guess is that since the Fed Govt has set certain standards, many states have similiar rulings in their own Constitutions. While if the Fed was out of the way, states might be inclined to get out of the way more as well.

Now, the same could be said about abortion and slavery. Shouldn't these both fall under 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?' It would seem like they would. But on the other hand, since the Constitution doesn't discuss abortion, doesn't it belong to the states to decide?

So which is it? Again, none of this is perfect. And I'm definitely not a Constitutional lawyer. But it would seem the tougher the question, the more local the decision would need to be.

Kapandpen, you also assume that 'your state will make abortion/drugs/prostitution legal - homeschooling/raw milk/spankings illegal - etc.'
Why that assumption? Your state may be just as likely - maybe more likely - to rule the opposite way.

If the state next to yours recognizes homosexual marriage, your state doesn't have to. That's the beauty of states' rights.

And again - at the state/local level - we are inclined to have more influence than at the Fed level.
As long as we get involved in the process, that is.

And ultimately, if it's a states' right, what each state would do is moot. At least the decision would be back under the proper jurisdiction.

I am coming to a point where I don't believe the Fed Govt - outside of 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' - is supposed to be in a place of making moral judgments. And yes - that means your neighbor may want to lead a lifestyle you don't agree with.

But these should be individual freedoms - not black rights, gay rights, etc. There really isn't such a thing as a group having rights - that breeds special privileges and racism. Rights are individual. And your neighbor cannot force his or her beliefs on you - nor can you on them.

Think about this - if the Fed Govt can tell them what they can't do, they can also tell you what you can't do (attend church, homeschool, etc). The principle applies to all. If we feel we have the right to try and force our morality on them, then wouldn't it stand to reason that they should have the same rights to try and do the same to us?

That's a difficult thing to hear. But I don't believe even God typically forces people into making the 'right decisions.' In fact, the bible says that He turns sinners over to their sin. He allows them to continue to live in that wrong decision since they have chosen to reject Him.

But we're talking about moral standards enforced by the Fed Govt being wrong. What about states enforcing those kinds of laws? Doesn't that bring us back to asking the question about whether morals are covered federally under 'life, liberty... etc.'

Let's remember that, just as one person's moral character can influence others, so can a community's character influence others in the community.

So what about local standards? My community might want x-rated bookstores banned - another community might not. Is a store like this protected by the Constitution, or does it fall under local community standards?

The FCC can't really enforce morality. Which is why for years they have typically left that to the local community. If people in one city complained about a 'shock jock' or offensive music, they were establishing the community standard for that city and that city alone. And the FCC would enforce what the community wanted. While other cities might not be offended, and that would establish their community standard.

Another example. Let's say City Hall in one town wants to display a manger scene. If you're a Christian, you typically believe this is acceptable. We say to the few that don't want this that they shouldn't feel threatened (we shouldn't make them feel threatened either), and that 2-3 dissenting voices shouldn't 'ruin it for the rest of us.'

Fine - what if you live in a community where City Hall displays something for Kwanza instead? Do the same principles used in the 'manger' example also apply here?

If not, then isn't that forcing our beliefs on others? Isn't that not allowing the people the right to decide what is acceptable for their community?

And it it's yes, then you would have at least three options:
1. accept your role in that community as a minority, who has the right to what you believe (and without pressure from the majority) - much like a missionary in a foreign land;
2. work to elect officials that reflect your point of view (or run yourself);
3. move.

One thing to remember when listening to the different candidates talk about what they would do as President is that the President has a specific job description. And if the candidates say they'll do something that is not constitutional, then that ought to be a big red flag. The President can make use of the bully pulpit. But do we really want someone saying they'd vote for a bill that is not within their job description?

An example is Terry Schivo - it appears letting her live or die should have been either a personal or state decision, not a federal decision. And yet at the Values Voters debate, I believe all but one candidate said they'd support a Federal bill that would determine the outcome. Even though doing that would essentially take away personal rights and/or states rights.

I'm not smart enough to have many, if any, of the answers. But I've been challenged to think outside of my 'box.' If we attempt to follow the law of the land - the Constitution - we will still have debates. But at least those debates will be about following the law of the land, rather than 'our feelings' or 'today vs yesterday' or making it up as we go.

Thanks again...

Wade

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Jan. 1, 2008 - Untitled Comment

Once again, awesome job Wade! Thank you!

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Jan. 1, 2008 - I am not for Huckabee...

From what I have heard of his track record in his work in Arkansas....He is NOT good for America. I do not agree with his domestic policies especially for AIDS patients. It seems to me that he cares more about the polls than his convictions.

I am a homeschooler (a proud one) but I am not for Huckabee. He is scary!! Take a good hard look at his track record.

Holly

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Jan. 3, 2008 - Huckabee

I believe this kind of discussion will mislead a great many home schoolers to think that Mike Huckabee is not a good choice for President. Given the other choices out there, I believe Mike Huckabee to be the best candidate for Presidency. This is the 'real question' to answer...Who will best serve as President of the United States and represent/protect Christian values and beliefs.

Concerning Arkansas home school law, it is one of the least regulated states in the nation. I home school my four children (from the beginning) in the state of Alaska. Alaska requires no notification, no requirements whatsoever when one chooses to home school. We will be moving to Arkansas in the near future, so naturally, I've investigated Arkansas home school law. Arkansas only requires that the superintendent be notified before the beginning of the school year/semester, or before the beginning of the 2nd semester. They also require mandated testing from grades 3-9. This compared to other states in the nation is very minimal. I understand that there is a "discrepancy" in the workings of the notification process in Arkansas, that is something that will have to be addressed in Arkansas.
Finally, just as you can not hold President Bush totally liable/responsible for entering the "War on Terror", because Congress ultimately gave the permission/go ahead/approval; you can not blame the Arkansas home school notification process totally on Mike Huckabee, as it was written/signed/approved by the State Congressman/Representatives.
It certainly sounds as if you know quite a lot about politics and home schooling....almost to a point of over-analyzing.
Sincerely, LKH in Alaska

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Jan. 3, 2008 - response to LKH in Alaska

Hi LKH -

I actually hope that this conversation will lead people to look at Mike Huckabee's record. Once they do, they will hopefully realize that, in spite of the fact that he's a pastor and maybe even a nice guy, he is not a good choice for President.

I think his record shows him to not be a defender of the Constitution. He has said he would make decisions based on what he feels is right, rather than what the law says is right.

I also have some problems with his integrity, which I won't go into here, but I believe have shown up on the campaign trail.

The main reason I wanted to respond was to answer what you said was the 'real question' - who will best serve as President of the United States and represent/protect Christian values and beliefs.

The President is not supposed to represent or protect Christian values and beliefs. The President is supposed to protect and defend the Constitution - which means making sure that each individual is able to choose how they want to live their life and how they want to worship - or not worship.

We are not a Christian nation - that would make us a theocracy (similar to many Islamic countries). Rather, we are a nation based on Judeo-Christian principles. And those principles allow each individual to choose whether to follow God or not. Very biblical.

One other concern is how Huckabee appears to not have a problem with 'growing government in the name of religion.'
http://newswithviews.com/Duke/selwyn79.htm

As I've mentioned previously, I am a Ron Paul supporter. My preference is to follow his example and not talk poorly of other candidates. However, when information I believe to be faulty is presented, it would seem to make sense to clarify with truth.

Mike Huckabee has not been consistent in his support of homeschoolers. He has compromised. Yes, you can't blame him for everything that happened while he was Governor in Arkansas. But you can hold him responsible for his part - he was governor, after all. And the buck was supposed to stop with him, and it didn't.

Ron Paul has been consistent in his support of homeschoolers, as well as other issues, over an extended period of time.

Thanks for the conversation!

Wade

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Jan. 4, 2008 - LKH from Alaska Response

I did not realize, until after I posted, that there were SO Many previous posts concerning Spunky's articles on Huckabee and Home school support. After reading so many entries, some good, some not so great, I decided to 'investigate' further several Presidential Candidates, including Ron Paul, Mike Huckabee, and Barack Obama. You can find any information I'm mentioning by going to any of these candidates campaign websites and researching their issues. However, because I did not remember WHO Ron Paul was, I researched him on Wikipedia as well as reading his campaign site.

Barack Obama's personal beliefs are completely against a Biblical/Christian 'worldview'...such as, the sanctity of life, homosexuals and the view of marriage between one man and one woman, just to name a few. He does not think the U.S. should be in Iraq fighting the war on terror. He endorses all sorts of Federally funded 'programs' such as 0-5 Infant care or Universal pre-school, but you won't hear the word 'home school' come from his mouth. He is a smooth politician, and a compelling speaker, who appears to make a lot of sense to a lot of people. Sad, but true.

Mike Huckabee does appear to have a Biblical worldview, supports the sanctity of life, seems to support home schooling (although, maybe not as much as some seem to think he should), supports tax reform and the abolishment of our current unfair tax system, supports the war on terror, supports the safety of our borders and stopping the illegal immigration. He is intelligent AND funny. He is a compelling speaker.

Ron Paul - I did not remember WHO Ron Paul is until I went to his website and saw his picture - Then it dawned on me that I had seen/heard him during one of the debates in early December. I was not impressed. He appeared unprepared to debate anything. He appeared to be unsure as to how to answer any questions that were asked. After reading a few of the issues listed on his campaign website, I think I understand where he is coming from a little more. But I did not understand until I went to the website...it was not made clear during the debates. On social issues he sounds conservative, on war issues he sounds liberal, on tax issues he is radical, but overall he is a bit confusing. He does not represent himself very well, he is not articulate, and therefore cannot get his ideas 'across' to the average person in a timely, coherent manner.

This brings me to my previous post, the "real question", who would be the best President of the U.S. to represent/protect Christian Values and beliefs. Your response:

"The President is not supposed to represent or protect Christian values and beliefs. The President is supposed to protect and defend the Constitution - which means making sure that each individual is able to choose how they want to live their life and how they want to worship - or not worship."

So, if "The President is not supposed to represent or protect Christian values and beliefs..." Then, are you saying that it would be fine to have Barack Obama as the next President? Since he does not represent any core values/beliefs? Or, are you saying what is mentioned above, that BY defending and protecting the constitution, the President ALSO defends and protects Christian values and beliefs? If the later is true, then we need a strong, articulate, 'on his toes' President; I don't see Ron Paul as that candidate. He does not have a chance against Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton. My Opinion is that Mike Huckabee IS articulate and 'on his toes', understands the American public, and wants to make a change in our government for the better. To vote for Ron Paul would be throwing a vote away, as Hillary or Barack would certainly take office. Huckabee may not be perfect, but I believe him to be a Godly man, sincere, and that he will lead the U.S. in the right direction to the best of his ability.

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Jan. 4, 2008 - response to anonymous

Your comments:
You quoted Wade who said: "The President is not supposed to represent or protect Christian values and beliefs. The President is supposed to protect and defend the Constitution - which means making sure that each individual is able to choose how they want to live their life and how they want to worship - or not worship."

You responded: "So, if 'The President is not supposed to represent or protect Christian values and beliefs...' Then, are you saying that it would be fine to have Barack Obama as the next President? Since he does not represent any core values/beliefs? Or, are you saying what is mentioned above, that BY defending and protecting the constitution, the President ALSO defends and protects Christian values and beliefs? If the later is true, then we need a strong, articulate, 'on his toes' President; I don't see Ron Paul as that candidate. He does not have a chance against Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton. My Opinion is that Mike Huckabee IS articulate and 'on his toes', understands the American public, and wants to make a change in our government for the better. To vote for Ron Paul would be throwing a vote away, as Hillary or Barack would certainly take office. Huckabee may not be perfect, but I believe him to be a Godly man, sincere, and that he will lead the U.S. in the right direction to the best of his ability. "

Thank you! This is exactly where I always have a problem! Libertarian and Constitutionalist supporters do not care about the morality of the country as far as voting goes (that's not to say they don't care at all, it's just not an issue for them when voting) because they feel strongly that if the President votes ONLY on what is outlined in the Constitution, the states will then be forced to make laws based on the voters of the individual states. If a state has outlined in their Constitution that various immoral activities are okay, then they have to elect people who will either be willing to change their state constitution or they will have to move to another state, or live under the same bad laws they currently live under at a federal level. Regardless, to them it is a state issue, not a federal issue.

The idea is great and I'm all for supporting the Constitution as originally drawn up, but the problem with this from a very practical, reality-check standpoint is that so much has already been turned over to the federal government that the likelihood of regaining any of it to the states is next to nil. Which is why I usually cast my vote for the lesser of two evils, believing the Republicans are on a somewhat slower path to destruction than the Democrats.

Your quote: "Then, are you saying that it would be fine to have Barack Obama as the next President? Since he does not represent any core values/beliefs? " I have said this many times myself. Ron Paul supporters (no disrespect intended...I may still vote for him, I am completely undecided) feel that we should vote our conscience regardless of what the fallout is. Christian Libertarians (sort of an oxymoron in my opinion) and Constitutionalists tell us that it is our Biblical duty to vote our conscience and let the results be in God's hands. I understand that point...and I do agree to some limited extent.

The problem I have with it is that I cannot escape the other side of the coin, which is exactly what you stated here: "To vote for Ron Paul would be throwing a vote away, as Hillary or Barack would certainly take office." I personally feel I would have to give an account before God, not for not voting my conscience, but for helping an ungodly man take office. Voting for Ron Paul or any other candidate if I KNOW he will not win is the same to me as voting for the Democrat. Which is the greater sin? I don't know. That's one of the reasons I'm still undecided in this election. I am not a staunch Republican, I am disappointed by many of the things they have allowed. But I'm not sure bailing in the Presidential elections is the right thing to do, either. Third party candidates get my vote more often in lower elections because they have a better chance of winning. I don't feel like I'm helping the enemy then.

I was very interested to see how the Iowa caucus turned out. I was very surprised and disappointed that the top three did not include Ron Paul. Huckabee led Romney (which is good, I think...I believe Huckabee would be a better president than Romney). I actually was expecting Ron Paul to get an impressive number of votes, based upon how many people seem to be supporting him. Which leads to the next question....if Ron Paul continues to not do well in caucuses and primaries around the country, he will likely not win the Presidency. So what's the point in voting for him?

Voting for Huckabee seems to be a much better option than letting Barak Hussein Obama become President. I can't even look at his name typed out and think AMERICAN president! It looks too much like the United Emirate States with him leading....

I may vote for Ron Paul in the primaries, but if it comes down to Huckabee or Obama? Huckabee....no hesitation. Whether or not he's 100% for homeschooling. I honestly don't see that he would want to be responsible for taking away the rights of homeschoolers on a federal level, anyway.

Homeschooling is not the small, hush-hush, religious fanatic option it was thought to be 25 years ago. Almost everywhere now, it is a respected, even if not agreed with, legitimate schooling option. Each state has laws in place both protecting and governing their citizens rights to homeschool. I don't think Huckabee would be interested in trying to take those rights away.

However, I can guarantee the Democrats would fight to do whatever was necessary or illegal to take away all rights to homeschool. So if I vote for a party or a person that can't win, I contribute to the party that wants to remove my homeschooling rights altogether. How is that good political voting on my part?

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Jan. 4, 2008 - ooops - above comment was by me!

Sorry folks - I forgot to fill in the "from box" - I don't mind taking credit for my opinion! ;-)

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Jan. 4, 2008 - Freedom

Hello!!! KapAndPen, PattyCake and Mr./Ms. LKH from Alaska? Can you hear me? Ok... hold on and I'll try to do some reasoning by asking questions this time. (Jesus asked questions didn't He?) I'll just start with three so that the sound byte Christians supporting Hucklebee won't be too overwhelmed with the information picked up by researching this for themselves.

Question 1:
Who ruled that abortions are legal?

Question 2:
Who ruled that prayer was to be taken out of the schools?

Question 3:
Who sends three times the money to Israel hating nations rather than to Israel?

Yes, Ron Paul is inarticulate in the debates because he's trying to cram his incredible knowledge into the itsybitsy couple of minutes the television mesmerized audience can handle before they glaze.

LKH, you did not read all the posts above. The answers to the questions are all up there so you won't have to go too far for all your research. The arguments supporting Hucklebee have been crushed above with no one to refute or deny with any countermanding argument other than someone's anecdotal personal experiences in dealing directly with some Muslims.

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Jan. 4, 2008 - I apologize.

Being frustrated is no excuse for being disrespectful. I hope you'll forgive my demeaning post.

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Jan. 4, 2008 - response to hello from rpisgr8

I guess my itsy-bitsy mind doesn't understand the questions in relation to the subject matter. (No worries - I'm not being sarcastic! - just smiling while I type this.) I gathered many posts ago that you are very excited about Ron Paul and it shows in your posts. At least you know who you are voting for! Some of us remain undecided.

Most recently on this thread, we've been discussing viability status among other things, so I'm not sure what exactly you are getting at with your questions. But to answer your questions:
Question 1:
Who ruled that abortions are legal? The Supreme Court - not the president.

Question 2:
Who ruled that prayer was to be taken out of the schools? Again, the courts - not the president.

Question 3:
Who sends three times the money to Israel hating nations rather than to Israel? Congress - not the president.

Actually, you are illustrating some of my earlier points - much as we all love to sit around and bash whatever administration is currently "in power," policy is not always decided by the president. So, let's say RP gets elected and bad legislation comes across his desk. He vetoes it. Good for him. He did the right thing. But then - ooh! Congress overrules him! It happened during his presidency, so he gets bashed for it. History will play him as a bad president because he allowed whatever law to be passed. I fail to see how we can always blame the president when it is not always his fault. Now, when you have a Congress full of liberals and you elect a liberal president who appoints liberal judges....then yes, I see where that all works together to create a huge mess for the country. But sometimes you get conservatives in the mix, and even if they try to do right, or do as right as they can, if they get outvoted, people blame them for the outcome, which is not really accurate.

Your quote: "Yes, Ron Paul is inarticulate in the debates because he's trying to cram his incredible knowledge into the itsybitsy couple of minutes the television mesmerized audience can handle before they glaze."
Well, fortunately, you are debating here with people who actually try to think, unlike the millions of Americans you are describing, (accurately, I may add), who watch unhealthy amounts of television. Our family does not watch TV. I appreciate your faithfulness to your candidate, but it is true that RP is not very articulate and I don't think it has to do with time. I've read a few transcripts and sometimes he has lots of time to answer, but his answers are filled with big-time no-no's for debate students: Umm, Uhh, etc. Certainly I do not believe for a moment the man is unintelligent, but I do think he needs some coaching on speech, especially if he intends to win the presidency. People flock to those they can relate to, and that explains Obama's following - he is very good at making himself pleasing and understandable to Democrats. People like Huckabee because he has the ability to make folks feel like he's "just one of them." As a political analyst today pointed out, Reagan was very good at that as well, and he was one of the best-loved presidents.

By the way, I'm appreciative of your apology - thank you! (I really mean that!) This is just a great way to express opinions, question, and search out information. I also have a newly-turned 18 year old first time voter - so I know this has been helpful for a lot of us!

I haven't seen Spunky reply in a long time - I wonder if she realizes how much interest her post has generated? This one blog has been responded to for almost three weeks! Wonder what the TOS record is for a blog topic thread run?

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Jan. 5, 2008 - RPIsGr8 - Isn't that an attack ad?

Copy cat! Are you just trying to post an attack ad and then apologize for it later? Sounds familiar.

KapandPen- you missed RPIsGr8's point. His 3 questions were supposed to point you to "the federal government". If Ron Paul switches all the authority to the states, there will be no rulings like that from the Feds. It's about time we stand up for ourselves and CHOOSE FREEDOM.

Thx for letting me post my 2 "Ameros"...

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Jan. 5, 2008 - This is exciting!!! The questions worked.

And yes - "Choose Liberty" you are stealing my point. RP is the ONLY candidate in either party whose sole purpose is to go to Washington and restrict Congress to the 17 jobs that they were given to do in the Constitution. (Article III - Sections 1-17.) That's it. There is NO authorization for our Federal government to go anywhere outside these duties - BUT EVEN MORE IMPORTANT THAN THAT - he understands that the original Bill of Rights are RESTRICTIONS on the Federal government and is willing/wants to reduce the power of the presidency to fit within it! The only time you have ever heard a candidate say anything close to this is when Reagan (who I named my son after) ran for president.

BTW - You answered all 3 questions correctly - and that is the point. We cannot look to man to solve our moral problems because they will use our mandate to solve those problems to enhance power for themselves. The Federal Hate Crime laws are a perfect example of this in that the laws now set up SOMEONE in a position of determining what is in the mind of a person WHEN they commit a crime. The notion is ludicrous first of all, but nevertheless - again takes the power from the states to punish capital crimes and give the Feds first right to cherry pick whose going to be brought up on these charges at the federal level. (Requiring more funding to prosecute and grow the government.) This is just ONE example of things that they are doing EVERY DAY to enlarge.

I tell you what - I see that you are engaged now and I challenge you just to go to youtube.com and search Ron Paul. I don't care what video you pick as long as it is him speaking and it's not in a debate or anything. He's all over you tube - more videos uploaded on him than any other politician ever.

Here is one link that I particularly like because he's given an opportunity to explain. (At first the interviewer is "hostile" (for lack of a better word) towards him, but during the whole interview, you can see a definite shift.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leN3pdjy9dw

The interview has six parts that come up after each other on the right as you watch through them. I swear that if you watch these and you can come back here and give me one thing that you disagree with and base it on anything substantive - I will congratulate you and full heartedly back you in your decision for Huckabee and will feel good that you have at least put forth the effort to be a fully informed voter. I'm serious on this. This interview is a little old being done in June, so his message has become more refined as he has come along - so you may find he has much better points to be made in the other vids.

I feel quite comfortable saying that you will come back here afterwards asking how you can get more information on Ron Paul.

Hope to hear from you soon.

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Jan. 5, 2008 - I heard you on the Congress.

I agree 100% with you on this. But this movement has to start with the presidency and what is happening here with RP is a seismic shift in the two party system.
When I go to the meetups - I'm amazed that half of the people coming are Democrats and Independents (just like what happened with Reagan)

Ron Paul really is Ron Reagan on steroids. While he's not the best at communicating, his understand and knowledge is something to behold and goes way beyond Reagan. When he takes office - he will have very long coat tails for others to follow into Congress.

I gave Bush a pass on his lack of communication skills because he claimed to be a strong Christian and I really felt that he could turn things around. I voted for him twice. Looking back, maybe it would have been better for someone like Kerry to get in, because the country would definitely be looking for someone like RP to dig us out. I don't know - other than I'm very disappointed in the man. He's sold us out.

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Jan. 5, 2008 - Untitled Comment

RPIsGr8: I appreciate the comments you're posting here about Ron Paul. I'm solidly with you on your points.

And yes, without the federal gov't overstepping its bounds, we wouldn't have a Roe v. Wade or any number of other disgraces to the Constitution. I'm not positive, but I thought I read somewhere that most, if not all the states, already had laws AGAINST abortion that Roe v. Wade overthrew. So, it seems to me that giving that back to the states would be the best thing we could do to stop abortion, right?

I'm also glad that you mentioned the communication handicaps that George W Bush had when he first ran for office. I actually laughed out loud when I saw Ron Paul being criticized here for being "inarticulate" by people that I imagine voted for W. It's only been 8 years! How quickly we have forgotten...

To the commenter (kapandpen, maybe?) who said that voting for Ron Paul is throwing your vote away -- this rhetoric always baffles me. If we KNOW that both major parties have serious issues (both are on their way to destruction, so we vote for the one who's moving there more slowly?!?!), yet always look at voting for change as "throwing away a vote", we will never see change in this country.

Yes, it may not happen in one election. It likely will not. But some of us are committed to vote for a return to the Constitution every time, regardless of how long it takes.

As for the comment about "Christian libertarian" being an oxymoron, I would love to see some basis for that snide comment. I'm registered Republican, but have a huge fondness for the small federal government of the libertarian position. I was not aware that I was stepping outside the bounds of my relationship with Christ to hold that position.

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Jan. 5, 2008 - Video clip spin / Huckabee couldn't be right

Your quote:"Here is one link that I particularly like... (At first the interviewer is "hostile"....towards him, but during the whole interview, you can see a definite shift." That was interesting. Also interesting were the comments posted on that link. Why is it that when I read comments posted on videos like that, the posters have to curse or make stupid, unrelated comments? Ugh.

Anyway, forgive me, but I don't see where anyone could say the interviewer was hostile, unless you are trying to see hostility by the very nature of the program. I did not see a "shift" either - she maintained a professional "sound" throughout the interview. I thought she had a very pleasant interviewing manner and she asked her questions respectfully. Certainly he didn't seem to be on the defensive. And, I'll admit, in that interview he didn't use a lot of "fillers" but simply answered the questions. Still, he doesn't come across as "strong" and I don't know if that will serve him well or not. I think that's where Huckabee gains some ground among voters - he "sounds" more like a president. Just an observation.

I guess I'm not biased enough one was or another to see people "attacking my candidate" - perhaps that's the benefit of my not yet having chosen one!

Now here's another round of questions, pertaining to Huckabee, since the original purpose of Spunky's post was to warn us of Huckabee being a wolf amid the homeschooling flock. Apparently, from what I'm reading, some voters feel that if a bill comes across someone's desk (governor or president) and he doesn't like it, he should either veto it (in which case the Congress will do whatever they want) or ignore it and not sign it at all (again, leaving Congress to do whatever it pleases).

Obviously, I must be missing something here. Why would it have been better for Arkansas homeschoolers to have Huckabee NOT sign the compromise bill and allow his state to have MORE restrictions placed upon them?

If he had not signed it, I'm guessing anti-Huckabee-for-homeschoolers would be waving flags saying, "See - look what he did. Absolutely nothing. He didn't even try to protect our rights! There was a compromise bill he could have signed which would have reduced the original bill's intent, but he didn't sign that either." Yet that's what I'm reading they wanted him to do - absolutely nothing, standing on "principle."

What could Huckabee have done that would not have had a negative spin put on it? I have read all the posts (not all the links) in this long thread. I have read several times where people think Huckabee should have either vetoed (which would have hurt Arkansas homeschoolers) or ignored (same result) the bills presented to him. What I have not read is how those same people interpret what the fallout would have been for homeschoolers and why that fallout would have been better than what he did.

Do I like compromise? No - I much prefer everything to be clearly one way or the other, but reality is that isn't how politics plays out. So the governor or president has to compromise sometimes, whether we like to admit it or not.

Why does anyone want to run for public office these days....regardless of what you do, you're wrong!

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Jan. 5, 2008 - apologies if I offended

pianosteve: "As for the comment about "Christian libertarian" being an oxymoron, I would love to see some basis for that snide comment."

I wasn't trying to be snide, I'm sorry it came across that way. I was speaking from my personal experience - as I have spoken to and read about (a lot!) and listened to interviews with libertarians, I cannot say I think the vast majority of those I have seen, heard, or read, hold to many standard Judeo-Christian values. That does not mean there aren't some who do....but certainly if I end up voting for RP, I don't want to be called a libertarian for doing so. For some reason, the ones I have come across feel it imperative to cut down other people, use vast amounts of sarcasm, and cuss in posts. A lot of them also demand their rights to legalizing drugs, prostitution, etc., saying they have the right to do ANYTHING they please without government interference. That leads to anarchy. Many libertarians I have read are steadfastly against parts of the 10 commandments. That's why I said being a Christian libertarian seems to be an oxymoron. I was not attacking you personally. I'm sorry you took it that way.

Certainly, if Ron Paul is a model libertarian, he stands above many of his persuasion. He is kind in his speech, he doesn't attack, I've never heard him cuss, and he seems to have morals and standards.

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Jan. 5, 2008 - Untitled Comment

I wasn't offended. I just wanted to see some basis for such a statement.

Your position has some pretty major logical fallacies in it, though, not the least of which is guilt by association.

I know lots of conservatives who cuss (Rush Limbaugh does not refrain from using profanity on the air) and I know lots of liberals who cuss, too. The fact that there are libertarians who cuss is hardly a basis for saying that "Christian libertarian" is an oxymoron.

With regard to the desire of some libertarians for legalization of some things, I am completely in agreement with you there. But there are Republicans who believe that abortion should be kept legal. Does that negate the idea that a Christian can be a Republican?

For the record, I am a registered Republican (not sure if I disclosed that, or not), but everything I have read about the libertarian position (at least from an official perspective) is not about legalizing sin. It is about leaving the decisions about our laws up to the agencies authorized by the Constitution of the United States. In most cases, that is the states.

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Jan. 5, 2008 - Untitled Comment

"Why would it have been better for Arkansas homeschoolers to have Huckabee NOT sign the compromise bill and allow his state to have MORE restrictions placed upon them? "

The problem came in when they introduced the compromise measure without a fight trying to oppose the first one. Huckabee should have and could have successfully fought this bill in committee and it never would have seen the light of day. Instead of fighting the first bill he had an homeschooler introduced a compromise measure and worked with the Democrats to reintroduce some regulation into homeschooling. Something HSLDA opposed doing.

This year, Huckabee was critical of the SCHIP veto by Bush. Saying that as President he would not have let things get that far, where a veto would have been necessary. (paraphrase) That's uckabee's "veritcal" philosphy coming out. the same philosphy he used on homeschoolers in Akransas.

Huckabee's "vertical" political philosphy seems to be compromise to avoid confrontation. Clinton was the same way, he called it Third Way politics.

I'm not a fan of "veritcal" politics. I want a President who stands up for the conservative principles of our founding and says that the PARENTS not the state are the ones who make the decisions regarding when a child should be taken out of school. If all liberal Democrats have to do is intoduce threatening legislation to get concessions from Huckabee, then what’s going to happen when he gets before the Democrats in Congress? No thanks!

Didn’t the first positive piece of legislations get passed by those same Democrats in 1997? How is it that two years into office all of that was lost? (Read post 2 for a parital explantion.) Could it be that there were other issues and "compromises" with other consituencies made that caused Huckabee willing to compromise? Dr. Ray Simon, the head of the Arkansas Dept. of Ed. had openly worried around the same time about how homeschoolers were taking money out of the public schools that was badly needed. So would a waiting period help stem the flow of money? Something to think about.

I am fully aware that their are those who would like to deny the fundamental rights of the parents, but Huckabee has the Arkansas Constitution on his side.

The Arkansas Constitution says,

“2. Freedom and independence.
All men are created equally free and independent, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights; amongst which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty; of acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and reputation; and of pursuing their own happiness. To secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. ”

In Arkansas men and women are free and indpendent. That includes their offspring. That means that a parent who believes that the family’s best interest is no longer served by having the child in a state school is FREE to pursue another arrangement. They DO NOT need the state’s permission to educate their child in a manner they see best nor must they wait 14 days to do so.

That’s what freedom means. Requiring a parent to wait before they exercise their desire to educate their child in a manner of their choosing is a violation of that fundamental right.

If Huckabee lacks the leadership, political skills, or courage to explain to the Arkansas legislature and those he represents why the bill they introduced denies the freedom and independence of of parents, then he should have let it go without his signature and at least he would have expressed token opposition. But he didn’t even do that.

Refusing to sign it would have at least shown that he recognized that the state has no jurisdicition making such a demands upon parents.

He could have vetoed this as well and forced the legislature to overcome one more hurdle, but he didn’t.

He signed it.

Some may consider this good political strategy, but I don’t think denying the natural rights of parents is good political strategy; at least not without explaining his fundamental opposition to such legislation based on the fact that the parent should not have to wait before taking their child out of a situation they believe is harmful to the child.

Huckabee may have been forced into a compromise, however he still had options available to demonstrate that he believed the fundamental rights of the parent had been violated. We don’t see any such recognition. Nor do we see any further attempts to remove such requirements in Huckabees time in office.

I’m not speaking without experience here. A bill was introduced in the Michigan legislature about 6 years ago similar to what was introduced in Arkansas. The legislature was seeking to increase requirements on homeschoolers through testing and other requirements for the same reasons as it appears this bill was introduced. One of the sponsors of the bill is NOT a homeschool proponent at all. He is very atagonistic and would like to see increases to prevent possible abuses.

He and I debated the point for about 45 minutes on a major radio show in the Detroit area. My argument was based on the basic premise that the parent NOT the state has the compelling or highest interest of the child. The legislator was forced into admitting that any regulation denied that fact and gave the state the compelling interest. The very next day this legislator pulled the bill.

The natural rights of the parents to educate their children is a fundamental right. There are those within our government who would like to deny that right through increased regulation and testing.

Huckabee’s compromise in the area of homeschooling was a short term solution to prevent a more strigent bill from passing.

Huckabee’s signature makes him complicit in a compromise that cemented in the minds of the Democrats and the people of Arkansas that the state has the compelling interest and the authority to deny parents their natural right to direct the education of their children. This inspite of a state Constitution which says that men are free and independent to pursue their own happiness.

If you think this would not have worked, then how did the Democrats in Arkansas realize defeat this year when they sought to impose new requirements on homeschoolers. Imagine that a Democrat governor and a Democrat legislature couldn't pass legislation to further restrict homeschoolers. Why couldn't a Republican Governor who was homeschool friendly do the same thing.

"If he had not signed it, I'm guessing anti-Huckabee-for-homeschoolers would be waving flags saying, "See - look what he did. Absolutely nothing. He didn't even try to protect our rights!"

If he had not signed it and stood up and fought it with the power of the Constitution and his articulate speech the could have defeated it or at least been on record as opposing it. Huckabee didn't try to potect the parents rights in Arkansas, he compromised and protected his political power and the expense of homeschoolers rights.

This is not just a homeschool issue, it is a philosophical discussion of how Huckabee will govern. When I hear him say he wants to employ "vertical" politics that is neither left or right and evangelical Christians cheer him, I want to cry. There is no lukewarm in my view of key issues. The left wants to destroy our fundamental freedoms and the principles of our founding fathers. I don't want my children to grow up in a world of global citizenship with a "common morality." That's what the philosophy of "veritcal" politics creates. I am not a fan of vertical politics and thus I'm not a fan of Mike Huckabee.

That's a blog post in a comment box, but it needed to be said.

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Jan. 5, 2008 - Spunky's backbone!

Spunky.... You are a hero and deeply loved. I hereby nominate you to be RP's homeschool Czar to go to Washington and personally dismantle the DOE once he takes office.

Your research is admirable and I am now moving my family from a Newsstand and backissue sale purchaser to a subscriber. Consider us committed supporters. I've given my wife her marching orders. (How's that for a non-PC comment.)

KapAndPen - did you watch all 6 segments of the C-Span video? Even watching just the first one indicates his capacity. I've rarely watched someone just listening once not being pursuaded. I considered her hostile because she indirectly insulted him using "others" insults. She started out with the usual "liberal" I'm more intelligent than anyone NPR attitude and then half way through she realized just how unprepared and incapable she was of confronting him on anything. She eventually said she was just going to have to have him back when she was more prepared on the issues.

If you didn't watch them all - it's worth your time. You will not regret it. Additionally, after we have convinced you, we need you and your sphere of influence to move this forward. We have directed many fence sitters and Hucklebee supporters to this blog with tremendous success. I just didn't have to work as hard to convince them as I have you. We need that kind of backbone in our camp and we look forward to your support.

BTW - I took the family down to the pier today to see the blimp in person. I was really shocked at its size. It was fun and I couldn't believe the number of supporters that came out. The place was covered with his signs. There were almost as many people this time as there were at the CNN utube debates. We met some homeschoolers while we were there too. It's incredible to see how this is growing.

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Jan. 5, 2008 - Go Spunky!

Wow! You are so articulate! "When I grow up", I want to be as well researched and intellegent as you! :) I second the motion, RPisgr8! Wouldn't it be awesome if Spunky could write all RP's speeches to homeschoolers?!

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Jan. 5, 2008 - KapandPen- one point.

You don't have to be "articulate" to know the truth.

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Jan. 5, 2008 - side note to choosefreedom & reply to RPisGr8

To ChooseFreedom: Actually, it was RpIisGr8's comment that his own candidate seemed inarticulate to some folks. I was just using his quote in my reply comment. I know you don't have to be articulate to proclaim truth. ;-) Moses argued that point with God....

To RPisGr8: Well, I appreciate that you think I've got a backbone! I also happen to be a pretty decent chess player, which is probably why it takes me so long to pick a candidate - I tend to view what's going to happen down the line in various scenarios based on the information I'm provided.

About the video clips.....I've now watched quite a number of RP's video clips on youtube (probably close to a dozen), which is quite miraculous for me as I really have no patience with all the garbage-mouths who post comments on those pages. Honestly, it isn't RP who's inarticulate - it's his marijuana-supporting followers who dirty up the youtube pages. Shame on them!

All those of you decent folks and homeschoolers who have decided to vote for him - you should be out there leaving so many comments the rest of the world doesn't have to view the trash talk. Why do people think that's necessary? Filling one's vocabulary with trash only shows one's inability to think and use a broad vocabulary...it certainly doesn't cause anyone else to stop and consider what they have to say! Ugh. Sorry for the soapbox.

Back to RP.

All that to say this, RPisGr8 - I probably will not be watching any more RP videos from youtube. I also have googled information on him, and I have some friends who have been supporters of his since he threw his hat in the ring and they send me endless pages of email information on him.

What are your intentions if Huckabee or Romney or someone else ends up winning the primaries? Will you hope that writing in Ron Paul will win the presidency? Or are you okay with living in a Democrat country ruled by Obama? See....even seeing that in type scares me enough that I can't see me contributing to that happening.

And, yes, I totally understand the point that if everyone would stop worrying about RP not winning and just vote for him that he would win, but I live in a real world, not fantasy. I've been watching politics for longer than I care to admit. 3rd parties don't win....which is why RP is running as a Republican and not a Libertarian - even he knew his only chance at winning the presidency lies in being on one of the two main party tickets. Do I like that reality? NO! In my perfect America, my farmer neighbor should have as much chance of winning as Hillary, but that's not reality.

If I sound disgruntled, cynical, and resigned to watching my country go down the drain, I guess it's because I am. I really was hoping RP would win the Iowa caucus....I think it would be fantastic if a grass roots player actually won the gold ring - it would shake up politics like nothing else could (well, a revival would do it, too!). It would cause all the "lifers" to realize their seats might not be so secure and maybe they should start listening to their tax-paying constituents.

One of the biggest hurdles any of us face in trying to see real reform happen in our political system is that we can't get a majority of people to do anything. Remember a long time back when there was an effort of trying to get everyone to just not file their taxes? I would have participated in that one - but it fizzled pretty quick. Too many people were afraid of being thrown in jail, which I had to laugh at - if 100 million Americans decided to not file their taxes because the whole thing is unconstitutional in the first place, there are not enough prisons to put all those people in. Even if there were, from a practical standpoint it couldn't happen because it would shut down the country. But....the majority couldn't be convinced. It's that way with Ron Paul, too. He may be the best of who's running right now, but you won't see a majority vote for him.

By the way, why are you last few commenters assuming Spunky is in RP's camp? She has clearly admitted she's undecided....well, except she's decidedly not voting for Huckabee! ;-)

Great dialogue, by the way....I've been enjoying checking in on this thread! Even if I can't agree with everyone, it sure spurs one to think!

And, RPisGr8....perhaps I watched a different video clip....that NPR lady I watched, I just can't see where you think she was how you've described her. I just thought the whole thing was a good interview and that it reflected well on Ron Paul. Guess I'm not seeing the communist behind the tree.....

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Jan. 5, 2008 - Untitled Comment

"By the way, why are you last few commenters assuming Spunky is in RP's camp"

LOL. I've been accused of being in Ron Paul's camp, a RomBot, and single handedly throwing the election to Hillary. I have a pretty good size ego (you have to have at least some to publish your own opinion and submit to this!) but to think that I could by myself throw this election to the democrats shows an incredible lack of faith in ones own candidate!

If I have that much power, forget writing speechs for somoene else, maybe I oughta run myself.

I'll email drudge and tell him the the Spunk-a-boom is coming and I wanted him to be the first to know. Does anyone know how I can video tape my official announcement tonight, there was a cloud over my house today that was in the shape of the a cross and if you can get someone here quick, I'm sure I can tape it as it's floating away. Then I can get my mug all over the net and get the free publicity necessary to launch my grass-roots campaign!

Piano Steve, can you do some soothing background music, I promise I'll link to your website and get you a job on Leno after I appear there!

Ladies and gentleman Spunk's Army is now officially in action. Soldiers march!

Join with me in singing our campaign theme song (to the tune of the Battle Hymn of the Republic)

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Spunk

She has trampled on poor Huckabee and left him in a funk

She takes the internet by storm and leaves them in defeat

Her words will lead them on.....

(And to the think the Spunk-A-Boom started right here and you all are the first to know. )

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Jan. 5, 2008 - Spunky - too funny!

ROTFLOL!!! I love it! We knew you when, eh.....

Thanks for adding some much needed humor to this debate!!!!

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Jan. 5, 2008 - Count me in!

Spunky, I'd be honored to provide music for your campaign ads! ;)

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Jan. 6, 2008 - huckabee or ron paul...

I found the site I wanted to mention:
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/projects/ongoing/select_a_candidate/
There's about 15 topics that you get asked questions on, and you get a pretty decent list of responses to pick from. Once finished, it takes you to a page that tells you how many points each candidate agrees with you on (terrible grammar, I know, and my B.A. in English is peeling itself off the wall, but it's almost 2 in the morning and I've been printing books for the past 4 hours so I'm really not into correcting myself!).

For instance, Huckabee agrees with me on 11 out of 15 topics; Ron Paul only 8 out of 15, but some of those are because he feels they are state issues, not federal, so I can extrapolate from there.

One point that was interesting to me is that RP does not favor a line-item veto. (Huckabee does.) I read RP's reasoning, and I understand his point. But, given the current situation with bills having piggyback legislation attached onto them, wouldn't a line-item veto be better than the current status? Perhaps he is hoping to remove the ability to piggyback unrelated legislation to bills - that would certainly be an improvement! Although, in all the pages I read of his comments, I didn't see where he said he was going to do that.

RP wants to keep social security....Huckabee wants to privatize it. This really surprised me - I would have thought that the two would have been reversed, with RP supporting privatization. That seems more in line with leaving things to the states, the people's choice, etc. Personally, I think privatization is a much better idea.

RP says repeatedly that he is for less government, smaller government, etc., and I'm all for that!!!! However, he does not list a plan for accomplishing it. (He does list plans for some of his other ideas....I wonder why he doesn't on this one? It makes it look like just rhetoric if there's no plan outlined...)

I like Huckabee's idea to eliminate the IRS (though I acknowledge that's about as likely to happen as I am to get younger) and his plan for prebate checks, and a fair flat tax only on new items. I thought that was well thought out ... even if it never happens, it's a good plan. I can't comment on how I feel about RP's plan for reducing taxes because.....I couldn't find a plan! Just that he wants to reduce government. Something a tad more specific would be helpful.

Interestingly, I agreed with both candidates on reinstating previous tax reforms which lowered taxes, stopping stem-cell research, pro-life, Iran, and healthcare.

I agreed with Huckabee on 5 other items: line-item veto, death penalty, marriage act, Iraq, and social security.

I agreed with Paul on 3 other items: energy, immigration, and education. (Though I concede that the death penalty and the marriage amendment, if left up to the states, could be considered irrelevant in choosing a candidate, so......it could be considered a tie here.)

So far, RPisGr8, it would appear I don't have enough to push me off the fence and into a camp. I will continue my research. SC doesn't vote on Monday, so I have a little time left!

Hope you all have a blessed Lord's Day tomorrow....oops....I mean in about 6 hours!

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Jan. 6, 2008 - You've been Ron Paulitized!

First of all - Spunky, I would like to head up your exploratory committee. I thought we would have a meetup down at the bridge for a sign waving and a game of pooh-sticks.

Spunky has not directly endorsed RP - but no assumptions have to be made. Her sharply defined character leaves no room for alternative.

Now - on to KapAndPen
I think it's great that you are investigating all of the key issues and how you feel about them and trying to get them to line up with your beliefs. My devotion to homeschooling is the key issue for me.

But there really is only one issue that the entire country should be focused on and the main rallying point for any election since 1914 and that is the systematic and incremental enslavement of our country through a fiat monetary system. This is THE system of unjust weights and measures the Bible warns us about. It's the reason it now takes two family members to work to provide for the family. (Try homeschooling in that environment.) It's starting to happen very rapidly before our eyes and RP brought it up in the debate last night. Everyone is complaining about the price of a barrel of oil being at $100.00. All the candidates’ eyes glazed over and Fred Thompson mocked him - but mark my words - this chicken is currently on his way home to roost and it's not going to be pretty. Before we went into Iraq, oil was $27 a barrel. RP showed how oil has stayed the same value per ounce of gold since then - it's the dollar that has been devalued. I know you've seen the black and white movies of Post WWI Germany where people were pushing wheelbarrows of cash around so they could buy bread and it was cheaper to burn the cash for fire then to buy firewood. Now I know it's easier to wield a credit card, but you are still going to have to work harder to keep up with the printing of the money. Where do you think the money in these $500Billion bills that are being crammed through Congress right now is going to come from? I remember Bob Lassiter going on about inflation back in the 80's, but never in my lifetime have I seen it being borne out like this. They are moving more cash into the system at a faster rate then they ever have in the history of the Federal Reserve. They have lowered the prime rate and the dollar – internationally - is in a free fall. They just finished taking as much as they can out of the housing market and now that they've finished doing that, it's time to move on to the services. Every industry is increasing their costs right now. As a small business owner, I'm going to be upping my prices soon. When it gets to my level, it’s serious.

RP is the only candidate offering solutions for this. He obviously is the only candidate with the mental capacity to handle the problem. (I sit here with his book written 20 years ago explaining and providing the solution.) Hopefully, this issue can be caught before they come to claim the fence you are sitting on.

Now on to Hucklebee (and indirectly the other candidates). Before you can even compare the issues - you have to look at the man. Please correct me if anything I say following is inaccurate.

1. He is a failure as a father. (See above post.)
2. Like Mitt, he will do and say anything to become president. (I got a phone call from God confirming this.)
3. His actions do not match his words. Overall he raised taxes 45% on the Arkansans. Forget the 96 times he "cut taxes."
4. He is cut from the same cloth (good ole boy network) as Clinton, maintaining the great majority of all Clinton and Tucker appointments including the pardoning of Clinton family members who are also rapists and murderers.

It was incredible to watch Gibson going down the entire line of candidates last night and nailed them all as being flip floppers (liars) except when he got to RP. When he got to him - he said “The only thing that has changed about you (in the many years he has been in politics) is your party.” That being said - who do you think is going to keep his word? When you hire the President, much more than his planks, you hire the man, his principles and his word. In my lifetime, I have never witnessed a politician more consistent and honorable than RP.

I've gone over the line item veto thing with you above. It's important not to discredit the founders. If you have read their works, you know their intelligence levels far supersede anything in Washington today.

Marriage - Congress shall make no law concerning an establishment of religion.

Social Security - a government contract made with the citizens. Ron Paul understands this and the only legal solution is to phase it out as the obligations are met. Congress shall make no law abridging the right of contract. It would be unlawful privatize it. (As an aside, the entire Congress would be thrown in jail for what they have done to the Trust fund. Can you imagine a company doing that?)

RP did great in Iowa. You have to understand that he went from 2% to 10% in about two months. He had the highest growth than any of the other candidates. Rasmussen just posted him at 14% in New Hampshire - above Huckabee at 10%. The whole fiasco with Fox's exclusion is backfiring. He's getting more positive press then ever before because of it and will have his own forum competing at the same time as the "forum" tonight. Remember that Ronald Reagan lost Iowa too.

Probably the most exciting thing I saw in one of your posts was that you said you wished RP had won Iowa. This is clear evidence that you have scooched a bit towards the RP side of the property line. (The king’s henchmen came and took your fence while you were reading this.) This is evidence that you have been Paulitized. We've been wondering what his last name is for quite a while now.

Thanks for the well wishes. To you too.

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Jan. 6, 2008 - CFR Membership

I have one more concern with Huckabee that seems to have little or no “air time” on this blog. Mike Huckabee is a CFR member.

A private organization, the Council on Foreign Relations originated the concept where the borders of the US would be merged with those of Mexico and Canada. Sovereignty of the US would me subjugated to the overriding economic, political, and military security of the three nations. They propose the establishment of a North American Union by the year 2010. This would effectively destroy the sovereignty of America. Here are some quotes:

“Some even believe we (the Rockefeller family) are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, and characterizing by family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure—one world, if you will. If that’s the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” –David Rockefeller, CFR member, Memoirs, page 405

“The main purpose of the CFR is promoting the disarmament of US sovereignty and national independence and submergence into an all powerful, one world government.” –Admiral Chester Ward, former CFR member and Judge Advocate General of the U.S. Navy

“The Council on Foreign Relations is an American branch of a society which originated in England… (and)… believes national boundaries should be eliminated and one-world rule established.”—Carroll Quigley, CFR member

Are you who are Christians NOT concerned about this? Is this not the one-world government the scriptures warn us about? Will we see the emergence of the 10 kings soon?

Rudy Giuliani, Fred Thompson, Mitt Romney, John McCain and Mike Huckabee are members of the CFR. And those are just the Republicans. Hillary Clinton (and her husband, Bill), Barak Obama (and his wife, Michelle) and John Edwards are also members.

Which top-tier candidate DOES NOT have ties to the CFR and DOES NOT support one-world government?

RON PAUL

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Jan. 6, 2008 - Untitled Comment

I would love to hear Michael Ferris's response to the many issues brought up in these postings. Has he responded in any way? I'm assuming you would let us know quickly if he had.

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Jan. 6, 2008 - Ferris

Me too. We're lifelong members of HSLDA and I have to say that I'm very disappointed they are backing Hucklebee over RP.

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Jan. 6, 2008 - HSLDA

Yes, I would like to hear too. I am a member and so sent a letter about this a while ago. I heard back right away that my letter was somehow cut off in transmission and that they had only received the first sentence. When I resubmitted, they never responded...

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Jan. 7, 2008 - Untitled Comment

I've had two conversations with someone from HSLDA before this was posted and none since. I have not had any correspondence with them either.

If you're concerned about it and they haven't responded in writing, you might try a phone call.

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Jan. 7, 2008 - Fence blown over by gale force wind.

As mentioned above Fox News excluded RP from a debate even though he polls higher and is tie with Huckabee in the polls. As a result, he bought is own show and received an incredibe amount of press for it.

This is the best, concise presentation he has ever given. I feel this speech/forum will be the kickoff to a huge upswing in his campaign:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxldrCsVByA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VQcpmfT0f4

Enjoy.

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Jan. 8, 2008 - well, well, well

Okay, RPisGr8, I have to admit, those links you posted are really the best clips I've seen yet. And yes, I'd have to agree that he makes a lot of sense. I think he explained his positions better this time than I've seen before - more thought out, for sure. I still have a lot of my other concerns - but I will be very interested to see how he does in the upcoming primaries. And, (drum roll, please) I plan to send those links to my email friends and relatives. Even if they don't vote for him, I think they have a right to see what he's saying.

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Jan. 8, 2008 - Well, Well, Well is Right!!! Holy Cow Batman!

KapAndPen - I have to say that you are a statistic and I'm happy for it. If you go to any of the polls about any of the candidates, you will see that RP's is the only one that slowly grows - consistently and constantly. This is so because he is a thinking man's candidate. As with you - it has taken time to absorb his solutions. but once you are there, you won't move.

What has just happened is that you have just "awakened" and the light is starting to come in. Even though I just found out about him running for President about 3-4 months ago, Ron Paul is the culmination of a movement that began long ago. I started studying this back in the early 90's. I would read the founding fathers and look around me and question how our society could move so far from it's roots - AND NOBODY said or DID ANYTHING ABOUT IT! As a young man, It made me very angry. I studied more and more, met with other people who were studying. But the people I met were all "angry" and “losers” too. It's a crushing experience to be angry all the time. After a few years, a dear Christian friend gave me a book written by a Christian philosopher named Francis Schaeffer called "How shall we then Live." Reading that book gave me that "peace that passes all understanding" because for the first time, I realized that man has the government he deserves. Unless man is governed by the morality of the scripture, he will most assuredly be governed by man because the Freedom our Lord offers is not the freedom to do evil, but the freedom to make right choices. Just comparing the word "Right" in Noah Websters 1828 dictionary to the modern english dictionary goes from

"Conformity to the will of God"
to
"in conformity with fact, reason, truth, or some standard or principle; correct: the right solution; the right answer."

At one time, outside of the constitution, our society was governed by moral laws about which our Congress was restricted from making any laws that would affect them. Now, by definition, that which is "right" is not based upon any guiding principle (scripture) and because of that, what is right HAS TO BE DETERMINED BY THOSE THAT ARE IN POWER and their definitions of what is “reason, truth or some standard or principle” . And that is just the way they like it.

One of the things that upset me most about the Ron Paul Presidency is that I see all these "angry" people with the foul language and "lawlessness" you've observed on utube, etc. Especially when people like Howard Stern sing his praises, it's very unnerving. You know these people aren't seeking the freedom RP is describing for righteousness sake, they are doing it because of what they think they will get out of it.

When I heard about RP running, I saw this myself at first and I had to really ask the question, is Ron Paul what this country needs? We have a Godless society and I had already determined that our society gets the government it deserves. I mean - I too would much rather have tyranny over anarchy.

I was driving to work one morning and Glenn Beck pretty much echoed that sentiment in that he agreed pretty much with everything RP stands for, but that our society wasn't ready for someone like him. I agreed. But in a subsequent interview, he said something to the effect of "Government is the example and sets the tone for the country.” "If the government encourages laziness and robs from some to give to others - it robs the society of industry, morality, and self respect." “Government set the tone for society to follow.” I can't argue with those statements other then to compare it to scripture. I immediately thought back to the early kings of Israel and realized that the Lord dealt with the country according to the actions of their leaders. RP is right.

What's exciting to me is that now the people who I was looking for in the 90's are waking up too and are starting to take a stand. Maybe, because good people are starting to do something – maybe we deserve a better government? Yes, the bad and foul mouthed people are there, and they always will be - but you know what, now that the pastors (Chuck Baldwin comes to mind, even Spunky and yourself) and other moral leaders are starting to endorse RP, I'm realizing that there is hope and that the anarchist will realize the self destruction the are reaping and will eventually look to the good for their inspiration.

This is the "shining city on a hill" ideal that Ronald Reagan (Johnathon Winthrop) talked about and is the reason I have hope. Realizing that true government starts in the home and until our Lord comes and sets up His Kingdom, as for me and my House, we will serve the Lord.

It’s really great to see how you have turned from an “Issues voter” like you were above (when you went down a checklist to see which candidate had the most issues that aligned with yours) to a “Philosophy voter”.

I’m hoping that RP get’s the nomination. He has sparked a cry for freedom that hasn’t been around since our war. If he does win, I have little doubt that he will be taken out by the powers that be (they aren’t just going to give their power away.) But he has started and done something I never thought I would see in my lifetime.

Halleluyah!

(I guess this entire post was off topic. Sorry. We do teach this stuff in our homeschool though.)

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Jan. 8, 2008 - Another apology in order. Geesh.

Just re-read my last post and man I sound arrogant in the beginning of that. Sorry. Not what I intended.

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Jan. 9, 2008 - taken out....

Actually, I have already considered the possibility that RP may never make it through his first few months in office....partly because I do believe some "conspiracy theory" stuff, and I think because he is not part of the "one world govt" crowd, he would likely meet an untimely demise.

However, if there are others in a position politically to take up where he left off, then great!

I don't know what you believe about Scripture prophecy and the USA, but I do not believe we are in it. I think that is because we are either no longer existent (nuked, perhaps?) or because we have been taken over by another power (the "great bear" of Revelation...possibly Islam? Used to be people thought it was Russia, but I see Islam as a much larger threat to our security).

In any event, while all this could be leading up to the imminent return of Christ, God could also be allowing America one last revival. You know, we would not have to choose between "evils" when voting if revival swept our country and many of our leaders got saved. I've often wondered at what laws would be repealed....what kind of order would be restored....how God would be put back in public schools and government buildings....revival...I would love for my children to see a real revival in their lifetimes, one like those that swept Europe generations ago.

Off topic a little, for anyone who has friends or relatives thinking life under Obama would be okay, go to www.tucc.org and read what his church believes. Check out their black values page and missions statement. Folks - these people are black muslims! They are HIGHLY pro-black - to the point where if white people made similar comments on their beliefs, they'd be jailed for hate crimes comments. It was scary reading!

That does point me back to this: if I am to vote my conscious, my conscious will not allow me to help Obama into office (i.e. by writing in RP). So, much as I might like some of RP....if he doesn't win the nomination and Huckabee does.....I'm going to have to go with Huckabee. So, I guess I better be praying RP gets the nomination, huh?

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Jan. 9, 2008 - Untitled Comment

kapandpen -

I hear what you're saying about revival, and it would be great -- I don't see that in scripture though. Looking at the signs and seasons, seeing us in the end days scenerio, Luke 18:8 asks "When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith upon the earth?" That's a rhetorical question, I believe. Also, there's the falling away - the "Men will be lovers of self ..."

I believe the day I'm hoping and praying for is when Christ is ruling and reigning. Until then, there is no man.

Lest anyone accuse me of being complacent, I still view the issues and vote, for 'till he comes we must be faithful, and be good stewards.

It bothers me immensely that RP was one of only two who voted against Prez. Loony of Iran being charged with genocide for stating that Israel should be wiped off the map (link given earlier in thread). Also, I really don't feel he gets it, where Iran is at with Russia's help. Well, regardless, it matters little (in my world) until these primaries are over. Here in NY, we make little difference by the time our turn comes around. Still, I'll do my part. Still watching, but nobody yet on the radar that I'm excited about - just possibilities of who I'll vote for over another.

One thing I know for certain - there will be no one truly good in office until Christ is ruling and reigning. And I agree with you - the US is hardly mentioned in the bible (but for "every nation will rise against Israel" - there we are!).

WHOEVER gets in, whether they got my vote or not, I will not be disappointed - not one bit. Nothing in this world surprises me anymore. Not the things far from me, nor the things close to me that have happened with people in my own circles. Things are getting more and more polarized, and you can see it more every day. Truth - and a hatred for Truth. Left, and right. There's popular (the wide road) and very UNpopular (the narrow road). I won't be disappointed, because I know that there's the end of the story that must be played out. My only job is to be faithful 'till He comes, and watch and pray. And vote. But not get too riled about the whole thing. God IS in control.

Deb

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Jan. 9, 2008 - Christian Muslims???

Kapandpen: Let's be really careful here. I went to the website you mentioned (tucc.org) and while they are having some pretty serious issues with their website, I found a lot of information.

Much of it concerns me, yes. No argument there.

But you called them "black muslims". I think that is incredibly incendiary and I really would like to see you retract that statement.

I am not endorsing TUCC at all (or Obama for that matter), but let's not play "guilt by association" or any other fallacious attack game here.

Their site states: "We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian..."

How does one be "unapologetically Christian" and be labeled a Muslim? I saw absolutely NOTHING on their site about Islam, Allah, Mohammed, or any other Muslim topic.

For a bit of balance on this, please visit:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/church.asp

Again, I am in NO way endorsing TUCC or their "black theology", nor am I endorsing Obama. But neither can I remain silent when antagonistic phrases such as "black muslim" are applied to people who name the name of Christ. (Let their fruit indicate their position in Christ, I am not commenting on their salvation. Only their self-claims.)

Please consider retracting your comment in this regard.

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Jan. 9, 2008 - Untitled Comment

I completely disagree with you. As a Christian educator, I understand where you are coming from and why certain parents make the decision to home school their children, and to the parents' credit, many children excel with that form of education. But home schooling, like any education, has flaws and needs to be regulated as closely as public and private schools. It is wrong for anyone to condem Huckabee for trying to make education a "vertical issue."

And as a conservative, I think it is wrong for you to make liberals out to be the enemy. If you think America was founded on Christianity, you are incorrect. This nation was founded on liberal- even radical ideas (words that are almost a curse in most churches today), but fortunately for us, it was also founded on a freedom that allows Believers and unbelievers alike the right to choose what ideas they support. Liberals, are not the enemy. They are fellow Americans who are just as entitled to act for what they believe is best for this nation. I may disagree with many liberal platforms, but I have to respect any man or woman that gets up off their rear and tries to enact a change that they believe is for the betterment of this nation.

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Jan. 9, 2008 - Untitled Comment

"But home schooling, like any education, has flaws and needs to be regulated as closely as public and private schools. "

There are those that believe homeschoolers need to be regulated. I disagree with that point of view on Constitutional grounds. Parents hold the state accountable, not the other way around. Parents are the "boss" and the state works for us. For the state to hold homeschoolers accountable is completely opposite the structure our founding fathers set up.

"It is wrong for anyone to condem Huckabee for trying to make education a "vertical issue.

I'm not "condemning" Huckbee for wanting to make education a "vertical" issue, I just disagree with that idea. Good people can disagree on an issue and not "condemn" the other can't they? You completely disagree with me, yet I don't feel condmened. So I disagree with Huckabee in the same way.

"I think it is wrong for you to make liberals out to be the enemy." Nothing personal really. I respect their right to fight for their beliefs, just like I am free to fight for mine. Isn't America great!

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Jan. 9, 2008 - retraction

Well, since I don't know exactly what definition of Black Muslim you're working under, and because it may carry connotations or definitions with which I am unfamiliar, I'll apologize if it offended anyone.

However:

Obama's earliest education (til he was 6 or so) was conducted at the MOST radical Muslim school in Jakarta (Indonesia is a Muslim nation in case anyone is unaware of that). They are called to prayer 5 times a day, etc. You'll remember that Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc. have stated (accurately) that if they can have influence over a child until the age of 5, they'll have that child's mind for life. Obama was under the influence of radical Muslims in Jakarta, Indonesia until age 6.

From there he lived with his grandparents in Hawaii for a few years until the age of 13. From age 13-16, the Indonesian government will not release information about his schooling at their Muslim schools. Anyone think he was trained in Roman Catholocism? Baptist? Pentecostal? Not likely.

His stepfather left his mother because she was NOT a radical enough Muslim.

He has no clear-cut statement of faith in Christ, not that he has to, certainly, in order to run for president, but he is not a professing Christian, regardless of what the church name is that he is a member of.

He refuses to pledge allegiance to the flag or wear a flag lapel pin. Why could that be? Perhaps it's because he's really a Muslim.

And he's black. (Not that that matters either - personally, I think it would have been great if a conservative black Congressman would run for president!)

Some of the stuff on that web page on black values for that church sounded familiar to other radical teachings. If I'm misjudging them, I'm sorry. However, if some of that stuff didn't scare you, maybe you should read it again. I'm being quite serious, and I'm not being sarcastic or demeaning. People think Muslims are all loving and peaceful, yadayayay. Do you realize that in Muslim countries TODAY there are THOUSANDS of people (documented by their governments!) killed every year either because they refuse to be Muslim, they have renounced their Muslim heritage and embraced Christianity, or because they are not Muslim ENOUGH by someone else's standards? This is so documentable it's not funny, but because everyone's afraid of offending someone else, the media doesn't bring any of it out!

So, I guess maybe I'm jumping to conclusions. I'll apologize if I did. But I was always taught that if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it swims like a duck, there's a good chance it's a duck.

Do I believe he has every right to live in this country? Yes. Do I believe he has the rights to American citizenship....because he was born to American citizens (whose loyalties obviously lie elsewhere, but, admittedly, that doesn't necessarily mean he was influenced by their philosophies....I suppose.....) Yes, because of the laws of the land, he has rights to American citizenship....and thusly to run for President. But that certainly doesn't make me feel secure in an America that would be under his domain.

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Jan. 10, 2008 - Untitled Comment

Kapandpen: Well, if that's a "retraction", I'm glad I didn't ask you to defend your statement ;) hehe

We're apparently going to seriously disagree on this one.

However, just for the record, my definition of "black muslim" is a person of dark skin who worships Allah and follows the Koran while claiming to be a Muslim. As I already mentioned, none of those things (except the "black" part) were mentioned on the website. Make no mistake: Muslims do NOT call themselves Christians.

For Obama's defense against many of the things you have said about him here, please read:

http://obama.senate.gov/press/070123-debunked_insigh/

Again, I am not trying to endorse Obama (far from it) or his church (far from it). But the racism and bigotry in this country has got to stop at some point.

And frankly, I'm quite embarrassed that Christians aren't the ones speaking the loudest to stop it.

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Jan. 10, 2008 - Untitled Comment

One more thing about this whole "muslim" thing. Here is a link to the bulletin from this past Sunday's church service at TUCC:

http://tucc.org/upload/tuccbulletin_jan6web.pdf

Say whatever you want about their views on black/african issues. Yes, much of that concerns me.

But I guarantee you that NO Muslim will ever sing the hymn "All Hail the Pow'r of Jesus' Name". (Read the lyrics. "chosen seed of Israel's race"?? Israel was the son of Isaac. Muslims believe they are descendents of Ishmael.) Whatever these people are, they are definitely NOT Muslim.

Nothing in that church service referenced the Koran, daily Muslim prayers, Allah, etc. etc. etc. Which is the point I made about their website earlier. A point which apparently was not clear enough.

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Jan. 13, 2008 - Update

Sorry I've been out of the loop for a while. Trying to make a living (while supporting the monkey.)
KapAndPen-
I guess - from your post - that you will support Huckabee in the General election if Ron Paul doesn't win the primaries. I think that's fair and I appreciate that. Hucklebee will probably be the wesser of two levils. Since you are in South Carolina, your day is coming very soon. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out.

The day after we vote in the primaries, I'm taking my family down to switch to the Constitution Party and we're going to do what we can to build that organization.

BTW - there is strong indication that RP came in third place in NH. I read where they are doing a recount because of some verified fraud. RP is against doing the recount because he thinks this will distract from moving forward.

I've been watching the regular news lately. I'm incredulous at how things are playing out. There have been so many stories about lowering the rate again and money coming in from Kuwait and China. Citigroup is allowing some of it shares to be purchased by a "Soveriegn Fund", whatever that is. Gas is supposed to be going way up again too.

And then - I was watching CSpan one night when I couldn't sleep and out marches Chertoff telling us that we're going to have to get our "National ID" or we're not going to be able to travel.

There are massive societal changes going on before our very eyes right now. And they are happening so rapidly.

BTW Spunky - I read an article by Mary Pride. Seems she has reached your conclusions too.

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Jan. 13, 2008 - Huckabee

Hi Spunky,
Your insight is interesting. I am not a Huckabee supporter, nor am I a "republican". I am a parent who had the pleasure of home educating my children protected by my Constitutional right to do so.

What I found interesting is that you appear to equate home education with as a religious one, not as a parental one - which I find offensive. Whether I am a Democrat, Republican, Libertarian or with the Green or Purple party and whether I practice a religion or am an atheist, I have the RIGHT guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution and NO ONE, whether by their religious affiliation, President, school committee will ever be able to take it away from me unless our Constitutional gets trashed through the ignorance of the citizens of this country.

Parents MUST become knowledgeable and not rely on organizations to lead them in any direction. Did you read the language of the Arkansas Bill that Huckabee signed? Were you there? Or did you and so many others rely on those like HSLDA's statements? I hope you review the bill and look at what happened. Who are the parents in Arkansas who lied sleeping and remained oblivious to its existence, its causes and its ultimate enactment...UNTIL it's too late.

Stay Well.

Let Freedom Ring. Advise parents to take a civics course...a HOMESCHOOL civics course which they will find within themselves.

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Jan. 14, 2008 - And you think "Rights" come from the Constitution?

The Bill of Rights merely enumerates (some) of them.
Bottom line - if man can give rights as you think they are "given" in the Bill of Rights. Then man can take them away.
There is so much history on this discussion, but as venerated as it is - the Constitution (as the framers believed) is just a sheet of paper outlining a social compact supposedly to limit the size of government. (If Jefferson were still alive today - he'd probably define the commerce clause a little more carefully because that's where they have "derived" a lot of their expansion.)
There are a number of excellent reads on "Rights". There are mainly two threads that history presents - one that rights are determined by the Laws of the Creator (Thou shalt not murder gives me a "Right" to life etc.) and then the other thread best presented John Locke wrote the Second Treatise of Civil Government which presents rights as "Natural Rights" or sort of a "Reasoned" set of rights that could possibly be defined as something man would be basically inclined to protect as a matter of force. (He actually uses a squirrel analogy where it uses force to protect its food stores.)
But probably one of the greatest treatises on Rights comes from the Queens Exchequer - a guy named William Blackstone which used to be taught in our country as a matter course (for Law students) up until the turn of the (18th) century - maybe a little bit later. Blackstone sort of marries the two "threads" (Third volume) saying that "Natural Law" is the "Law of the Creator" and is THE MAIN ideological force behind one of the country’s greatest documents - the Declaration of Independence. In fact, there's quite a bit of plagiarism going on in that document - though at the time - it wasn't considered a bad thing.

Just a quick review of history will show which thread leads to peace and prosperity verses anarchy and destruction. Thomas Paine - famous for his little book "Common Sense" went to France shortly after the successful revolution took place in America. Thomas Paine influenced and stressed "The rights of man." You know what happened with the French revolution. Which was more successful?

Most succinctly put, excerpts from Blackstone's Commentaries on the Common English Law are still on the front of the Original Supreme Court building located in Philadelphia. (I think that this is some of the most beautiful writing ever penned.) It's as follows:

This Law of Nature - dictated by God himself (is) Superior to any other. It is BINDING OVER ALL THE GLOBE in ALL COUNTRIES at ALL TIMES. No human Laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original. Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws. Human laws are only declaratory of and subordinate to Divine Law.

Homeschooling isn't a right "given to us" by the Fourth Amendment. And - based upon our study of history - as Subjects of our Creator - we are bound by the Laws of our Creator. Is that religious? I don't think so - it's a matter of Law. By the way - this is part of our Civics studies our home school.

Dr. Paul is VERY WELL READ on this and has passed this on to his children.

The really cool thing about this is that non-Christians - when following these principles - derive the same liberty, peace and prosperity just by being part of a society that adheres to it.

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Jan. 16, 2008 - LKH in Alaska, on Ron Paul

This is in response to the many posts on Homeschooling and Huckabee as originally started through Spunky's article.

To RPisGr8: I went to Ron Paul's website, I did not watch/listen to any of the You tube videos. But I did read ALL of the 'issues' and where he stands on each. I am surprised to say that I agree with Ron Paul on all but two issues - One being the war in Iraq, Two being support of Israel.

I've been reading all the posts with great interest. I am glad to see that IF Ron Paul does not end up the Republican candidate that you would probably vote for Mike Huckabee (if he won). But, I have to say, Ron Paul has my interest peaked. I like his basis, where he is 'coming from', the angle at which he 'presents' his beliefs/stance. He wants to give back control to the States to decide what is good for that State (aka the PEOPLE of that state), and to reduce/eliminate Federal control where it is not Constitutional. I love what he says about Home Schooling, Abortion, Racism, Social security, etc.etc. It all sounds more like what the Constitution was originally intended to be.

I will say that I still think he could represent himself better with more debate practice, practicing speaking to people for understanding. In the last debate I watched, Brit Hume, a majority of the candidates and other commentators, were totally mocking Ron Paul. They were treating him as if he were a lunatic, as if he were totally off his rocker. I saw it for what it was...a blatant attempt to discredit Ron Paul. Instead of allowing him to 'think' through his comments, they inundated him with quick retorts and comments. I also saw the mistreatment, in that after the debate Fox news interviewed Guliani, Huckabee, Romney, and McCain....but nothing about Ron Paul was mentioned. He has been continually left out of these 'after debate interviews'. Why is that? It is blatant disregard for 'fair', 'unbiased' journalism/reporting. I also noticed that there was a large crowd present and CHEERING for Ron Paul anytime he spoke...which I think baffled Brit Hume. (hehehe:)

Anyway...I do not want Ron Paul to get his way on every issue, if he were to become President....such as mentioned before...Iraq and Israel...but I do like everything else he says. He is passionate about the constitution.

In our homeschool, back in September, we did a unit study called "We the People" that covered the making of the Constitution...It was eye opening and inspirational to 'see' the passion of the men who signed the Constitution into existence. They had meaning and purpose, and though they did not all agree on every detail, they put our Country first, and signed the Constitution. I do not see any other candidate that so closely resembles the men of the Constitution 'days' than Ron Paul.

If it comes down to it, I will certainly still vote for Mike Huckabee as opposed to having Barack Hussein Obama as 'President'. (He would most likely turn our nation over to the terrorists)

All this discussion has been educational, not only for me, but for my children as well. My older two are both very opinionated and politically 'charged'...one would do very well debating. What I love the most? The fact that when I was in public high school I made D's in Government, Economics, and Western Civ. NONE of it made sense to me as presented in Class...it was boring, and I did not see how it would affect me. My children, on the other hand, are 'seeing', 'living', 'debating' all the issues, are extremely interested, and will never forget the lessons they have learned...this is Hands On Learning that most kids will not get in the public school system. Dumb them down so they'll vote for the Democrats type of mentality.

And, on a not so serious note: I'm still waiting for a SINCERE apology for comments made by RPisGr8:

"Hello!!! KapAndPen, PattyCake and Mr./Ms. LKH from Alaska? Can you hear me? Ok... hold on and I'll try to do some reasoning by asking questions this time. (Jesus asked questions didn't He?) I'll just start with three so that the sound byte Christians supporting Hucklebee won't be too overwhelmed with the information picked up by researching this for themselves."

This attitude and response was uncalled for, and not a productive way to speak to someone you are hoping to 'convert' to support Ron Paul. The arrogance was unbecoming and offensive. However, I do appreciate the continued responses, as they were done without so much arrogance, and provoked thought and investigation/study.
Take care everyone and God Bless You ALL.
LKH Alaska

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Jan. 16, 2008 - Untitled Comment

"([Obama] would most likely turn our nation over to the terrorists) "

I don't understand this comment. What does that mean?

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Jan. 18, 2008 - It was a sincere apology.

That post was done out of frustration and I regretted it immediately after hitting the "Post Comment" button. Again - I SINCERELY apologize.

Concerning your two issues with Paul: They are unfounded. There are many Isreali's that agree with and support Ron Paul - especially within the orthodox community. Ron Paul's solution makes both America and Israel strong and capable of dealing with the issues surrounding them. Please read about the "Loneliest Ron Paul Supporter on Earth" at http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/weisman1.html

My dad was a pastor, (he died a year ago). As a result of being a PX, I have hundreds of Christian friends and many hundreds more that have passed away during my 40+ years. I have to say that the older they are, the less they reason. They love hearing the drippy words pouring out of Hucklebee's mouth during the debates - and that settles it for them. No research, no thinking/reasoning for themselves, in my comfort zone of personal peace and prosperity type of mentality. Still they think that everything is just going to go on as it has and they care not for the upcoming struggles for their children/grandchildren(s). Mind you - these are dear friends that I love. I try to explain how Hucklebee is really Clinton II and they just refuse to hear it.

Again - society gets the government it deserves.

I have say though - that I'm encouraged. This blog has really opened the eyes of a lot of people. I've linked quite a few people here. But I have to say that the biggest event occured the day Carl Cameron of Fox News said to RP "Electability Sir - Do you have any?" It was such an in your face and insulting moment, that there was a major turn starting with that moment in public opinion. In fact, whether Paul wins or not, I think that moment will go down as one of the most important events of this campaign because - suddenly, the entire basis of Christianity's principles were challenged in that one great moment. The (media's) audacity coupled with Paul's overwhelming and most powerful response woke more people up then anything I have witnessed in this campaign or for years actually.
Now to explain my reasoning: I'm not comparing Ron Paul to the Messiah, but the parallels of the moment are incredible. Here is a man, swearing an oath to the Constitution some 30+ years ago. He is the only one who willingly submitted himself and eagerly defended the Law he swore to uphold. He was named "Dr. No" because he voted No on everything not granted by that Law. As far as my research has revealed, he is "blameless" in his record in regards to the Constitution. And then, as the rest of the candidates up there are laughing AT him, mocking him with jokes,(every single candidate except Hucklebee) Cameron lays the question. I'm telling you, my breath was taken away. It was definitely a "take the Paul before Pilate moment" as the rest of the crowd jeered and called for his head.
The cool thing was - he didn't flinch. His answer was calm, powerful and incontrovertible. All the promises, lies and mockery of the others just melted around him. Nothing stands up to the truth nor the honor of a consistent and principled man whose life has matched what he is currently saying. Not one of those men up there can stand up to that scrutiny. I just found it amazing that when they re-aired the debate, that's the only part they cut out of it.
Here's the link - it's short
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seuL1ZeWHSU

Paul's fight is to try and save this kingdom. I know we all have the hope of a greater kingdom to come. It's not a spiritual kingdom - but a real kingdom. We live in a fallen world. It's hard to imagine what our society would do with the true freedom that our Lord's Law would give them. It's something to look forward to.

In the mean time, there's SC and NV this weekend.

Again - the best policy reviews I've seen are here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxldrCsVByA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VQcpmfT0f4

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Jan. 18, 2008 - Obama

Obama does not appear to have any morals. Anything goes. Abortion? It's O.K.
Socialize our children in Gov't run daycare? It's O.K.

Obama, as I see it, is the epitome of evil. He has no evident morals. Can he be nice? Seemingly so. Can he seem like the "guy next door"? You could say that of many of the candidates. But, Obama is the only one coming from a radical Muslim background. One that believes that if you do not believe as Muslims do, that you are of no use and should die. He's using his popularity as a way of reaching the power of the Presidency. This is what I mean when I say "he'll hand the U.S. over to the terrorists". These are certainly my opinions, and of course, may not be totally based on anything more than what I've seen and read on the internet, and from watching and listening to Obama himself during debates and press time.
This is just 'my take' on Obama.
LKH

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Jan. 18, 2008 - Untitled Comment

LKH, I am not a fan of Obama in the least, but if you look above in this thread, I posted some links to refute this rumor that Obama is 1) a Muslim, and 2) from a "radical Muslim" background.

Much as I can't stand the man's policies, I'm very disturbed by this repeated accusation, especially when it's been challenged in this very thread. I don't know what you have read or heard, but there have been some very false reports out there about Obama's upbringing. Do not believe everything Fox News reports. They have demonstrated that they are far from "fair and balanced".

Question Obama's policies all you want, and you'll probably find a very hearty "amen" coming from my corner. But like I said to "kapandpen" above (who never responded to my refutation of her baseless slander), if Obama is a Muslim, he's a very strange one because he actually worships at a church that praises Jesus as "the seed of Israel" -- a term that is entirely foreign to the vocabulary of a Muslim.

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Jan. 18, 2008 - By the way...

"Obama does not appear to have any morals. Anything goes. Abortion? It's O.K.
Socialize our children in Gov't run daycare? It's O.K. "

Ummmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's pretty much part and parcel of the Democratic party platform. That's in no way unique to Obama.

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Jan. 18, 2008 - for pianosteve

I did not bother responding to your comment because we are not going to agree, and arguing over Obama is wearisome.

Since you brought it up, though, whatever the Muslim school Barak attended is today, is likely not what it was 40 years ago. Personally, I will take the word of missionaries whom I have met and who actually LIVED THERE during that time period and believe them, over any thread our government and leftist media may be laying out for all to see. He's the current prize child of the media - do you honestly think they would be reporting anything that would hurt his chances? Not likely.

Also, I do acknowledge that church is saying it is a Christian church. The rest I'll leave alone - people can go to their site and develop their own conclusions.

Personally speaking, I would not believe what a radical Muslim said one way or the other. Any group of people that would kill their own and fly planes into buildings to kill innocents, probably has no qualms about lying. Please note I said RADICAL...I do believe there are peaceful Muslims who would be content to leave the rest of us alone with our beliefs. But what scares me is that I cannot tell one from the other - can you?

As to whether or not Obama is a Muslim, we may very well live to see. I think he is more popular than Hillary, and if RP doesn't win the nomination, which likely he will not, his followers will probably split the vote on Huckabee, ensuring Obama of a win. That's my presidential predictions, for what it's worth. You can say you read it here, first, folks! If Obama wins and he does great things for our country and Christendom and homeschooling is not harmed, I will be happy to say he's a great president. I'm not holding my breath.

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Jan. 18, 2008 - Cough, choke choke.

KapAndPen. I'm stunned. You seemed like you had come around. Steve, are you doing a double take?

It's like I'm in a fog - and I'm seeing all these people around me.... But nothing is there. I'm flailing and now I'm falling - and wait - the ground is coming up fast.... I'm about to hit....

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Jan. 18, 2008 - Untitled Comment

Kapandpen:

I'm very saddened to see this response. You are determined to label Obama a "radical Muslim" and apparently are unwilling to consider any other possibilities. I think you're making a fallacious argument on several levels and are slandering someone in the process. I will repeat my request that you retract your statements that Obama is a "Muslim" based on incredible lack of evidence to support it as well as evidence to the contrary.

Fallacious argument #1: Guilt by association.
If, for the sake of argument, you are correct about Obama's childhood school, that still does not automatically mean that he, himself, is a Muslim or has continued to embrace Islam as a religion. Could Christ not reach the heart of a person schooled in that environment? You are labeling Obama a "radical Muslim" based on the alleged association with a "radical Muslim" school. This is a logical fallacy.

Fallacious argument #2: Circular Reasoning.
You support your case by saying that you wouldn't trust anything that a "radical Muslim" would say, so therefore Obama is probably lying about his past and his current affiliation with Islam. Circular reasoning is also called "begging the question". By asserting that he is a "radical Muslim" and then refuting any evidence to the contrary by saying that you wouldn't trust what a "radical Muslim" says, you are begging the question of whether or not he really IS a "radical Muslim". This is a logical fallacy.

Fallacious argument #3: Ad hominem attack
Instead of actually dealing with what Obama has said (or any other source that has sought to clarify what you have stated), you say that you wouldn't trust his word because he's a "radical Muslim". This is a logical fallacy.

The point remains, Kapandpen, that you made accusations about not only Obama, but an entire church by calling them "black Muslims" and now you're using the term "radical Muslim" to apply to Obama (and by association, I guess, the church, too?)

When I asked you to retract it, you said you were retracting, but then restated your point. You said that you didn't know what definition of "black Muslim" I was working off of, and I offered one. You never responded to that, but continued to assert that they were Muslims.

I have offered many reasons why it is incomprehensible to me that ANYONE could come up with the term "Muslim" to apply to people who call themselves Christians, worship Jesus, sing songs that COMPLETELY contradict Muslim theology -- are they all just lying "radical Muslims", Kapandpen???

Have you ever met a Muslim who will call themselves a Christian? Have you ever met a Muslim who will be more than willing to sing "All the pow'r of Jesus' name...ye chosen seed of Israel's race"? Have you ever met a Muslim who will only use the Bible in their worship services and never even once mention the Koran?

I have never met a Muslim like that.

I guess you are right about one thing. If Obama wins the election, we'll find out for sure, won't we? But at this point, I'm not holding my breath for a retraction from you, even if it turns out that he's not a "radical Muslim", after all, since you seem bent on repeating that slander.

Frankly, if this is what the body of Christ is resorting to in its misguided political enthusiasm, I am embarrassed, ashamed, and dismayed by it.

And no, rpisgr8, I'm not doing a double take. I'm just grieving the state of our nation and the body of Christ.

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Jan. 19, 2008 - whatever

RPisGr8
FYI, I did vote today in the SC elections. I did vote for RP, as I said earlier that I probably would. And, as I stated before, I will vote for Huckabee come November if he is the main Republican choice running against "the Democrat." You don't consider that something of a win for your arguments? I would if I were you - I wasn't particularly interested in RP at all before this forum. (Hope you've recovered from your faint! Splash a little water on your face, it helps....) ;-)

pianosteve
Obviously, you missed your calling. You should coach debate teams. You would enjoy it and I'm sure the students would learn a lot.

I wasn't trying to debate you, as I have never even been on a debate team. You are obviously more adept at argumentary presentations. I concede defeat. I don't have to agree with you to concede, do I? ;-0 (Smile - lighten up)

Where do gut instincts fall? They cannot be proven, but sometimes it's a good idea to go with them.

I am entitled to my opinion, regardless of whether or not it's right. You are entitled to yours - whether or not it's right. I listened to RP discuss rather passionately why legalizing marijuana is a good idea. I couldn't disagree with him more! But, he's entitled to his opinion as well.

Why is it when someone is called a Muslim, that's slanderous? If someone called me a right-wing conservative, I wouldn't be calling them a slanderer.

You want me to retract everything I said about Obama. Fine. Everything I said about Obama is wrong.....

.... according to pianosteve and the stuff our very trustworthy government and media is giving us to read.

;-)

As to the whole church thing, you want me to say they aren't Muslims, fine, they aren't Muslims!!! I thought I made it clear I relented on that point.

For all the rest of you who have taken the time to read this wearisome entourage, I apologize. I'm sorry if I come across slanderous, I'm sorry if I'm sarcastic, and I'm sorry I have opinions I cannot support. In real life, I'm actually not an appalling person and I do have a few friends. Shocking, I know, but I have my nice moments.

Oh yeah - RPisGr8 - have you seen the RP blimp? I got to see it the other day when I was driving around. I was impressed...don't think I've ever seen a presidential candidate on a blimp before!

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Jan. 21, 2008 - For kp...

We need to go back to some things that were said previously to put this marijuana thing to rest once and for all. There is something people are just not getting here…Ron Paul is not defending marijuana use and this is not his “opinion” that he is trying to push using the federal government as his vehicle for forcing people to believe what he does about drugs or anything else.

To go back to a previous post…

Can you honestly say that you think that the Federal government has been doing a good job handling these things? Do you think we could ever send enough money to a central power that would go out and evenly and adequately enforce laws and regulations governing these issues across all the United States? The apostle Paul was faced with this same issue concerning some of the Churches he had set up on his missionary journeys. Members complained to him about other members and their licentiousness. Paul was content to “give them over to a reprobate mind” which in and of itself inflicts its own punishment.

Dr. Paul, during an interview with John Stossel had this to say

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpgWAAmVwDM

He knows the law on this. What is there to disagree with?

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Jan. 22, 2008 - Principles vs. Issues

Adriane, thank you for clarifying that. It is erroneous to say that Ron Paul "wants to legalize marijuana". Like anything in which the Constitution does not give power to the federal government, RP wants these issues to be decided by the states. That IS the way our country was set up, and we have drifted quite far from it.

Abortion is similar -- I can't remember where I read it, and I have not verified this statement, but recently I read that prior to Roe v. Wade, abortion was illegal in the states (all of them, perhaps?). Yet, in one fell swoop, the Supreme Court (federal government) overruled every single state on the issue and made it legal at a federal level, thus removing the power from the states, where it had constitutionally been all along.

What's sad is that most of us are conditioned to think that we need the federal government to reverse its decision and "overturn Roe v. Wade", rather than correcting the systemic problem and giving that power back to the states.

So, again, thank you for pointing out the misunderstanding with regard to Ron Paul and marijuana. Ron Paul is not simply in favor of legalizing marijuana. If the power is given to the states (where it belongs) and all 50 states outlaw marijuana, Ron Paul would be completely supportive of that position.

I am starting to understand that this is where the disconnect comes for a lot of people. Most Americans see issues -- Ron Paul sees principles. And somehow, most Americans (especially in the evangelical Christian camp) have bought into the misguided thinking that says that issues are best solved at the federal level.

The reality is, the federal government stinks at managing abortion, drugs, education, etc., etc., etc. And this should not be surprising. They were NEVER intended to control these things. The states were.

And I think our representation in the state legislature is more personal than our representation in the federal legislature. So, in theory at least, it is easier to get legislation passed in the state that reflects "the will of the people".

I respect Ron Paul more and more every day because of his willingness to stand on principles and not simply issues.

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Jan. 22, 2008 - pianosteve

Yes, that's what I meant! Very well written.

"I am starting to understand that this is where the disconnect comes for a lot of people. Most Americans see issues -- Ron Paul sees principles."

This is just the way I see it too when I talk to people. Thanks for articulating this for me/us.

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Jan. 23, 2008 - Blimp

Hi KandP - others have handled the important responses to your post. I thought I would answer your blimp comment.

I can't tell you how great it is that you decided to vote for RP. Thank you.... You represent many who have come to the same conclusion through a little research and effort. Thank you again!
There's a lot of stuff happening right now that is going to have a big impact on this race. Everything he has been saying is occurring before our eyes. He's the only one that has been talking about the economy and the role that the central bank has been playing in everything. Today - they put a little band-aid on the problem by cutting the prime rate by 3/4 of a percent. This has propped up the economy for a little longer - but it's not going to correct the problem. Everything about our economy has been based upon a credit model and all the pointers are leaning towards a major collapse. RP wants to move us back to the gold and silver standards and get rid of the Fed. We will never get out of debt and we will be enslaved until this has been resolved.

On a lighter note(that was a pun) - yes - we did see the blimp down at the St. Petersburg pier about 2 or 3 weeks ago. It was amazing. I really was struck by the enormity of the thing. It's an incredible technology.

It's one of the few things that has brought him some national press.

Below I've enclosed a few links. I only post the best here - so you don't have to waste a lot of time. The first one will make you angry because it blatantly shows the audacity of Fox News and how they feel you should vote. They forget that the people are supposed to choose and not the press. There isn't anyone that will watch this - no matter who they are for that will not be angry at what they are doing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajWHdVHEVKg

Next is a video that really shows how many of our freedoms have been taken from us. The ending is great and ends on a positive note. I haven't laughed that hard in a long time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA-MOr-i6vQ

Finally - this one shows Dr. Paul's prescience on all things economy - the lifeblood of our freedom. (Just weights and measures.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaxdUPNYj2s

Hope you enjoy. Maybe we can get you to come down here and canvas for RP before our day on the 29th.

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Jan. 23, 2008 - Untitled Comment

For understanding Ron Paul's foreign policy completely, I recommend his “A Foreign Policy of Freedom”. Off the current topic, but we have learned much in our homeschool with this book recently. It is a compilation of his addresses to Congress during his years there. I don’t think I could have fully understood his ideas by relying on the media’s coverage! In fact, he has so much to say it is hard for him to get it all out at times in a debate or even some of the longer interviews I have heard. The book contains his full ideas unedited and they can be repetitive at times but I actually like that because I am reading it aloud and we like the reminders! It is also funny and heartening at the same time that he is a constant “thorn in the side” of Congress about matters of the Constitution. I am so glad to see him always reminding them. We need more like him! Also is brought forth his amazing memory of past events and how our foreign policy has affected us. I am grateful for his long perspective on all of this though I don’t think his memory is appreciated at times by other Congressmen…I highly recommend this book!

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Jan. 25, 2008 - Presidential Issues

To PianoSteve - As I stated before, what I posted is my opinion based on what I've read and listened to during debates broadcast on nat'l TV...words from Mr. Obama's own mouth....words from Obama's Presidential Candidate website, including some excerpts of Barack Obama's 'life story' in his own words. Guilty by association? Yes, as in "a wolf in sheep's clothing". Why would Muslims support Obama in the election? Obviously, according to you, he does not hold the same beliefs since he attends a "Christian" church. Yet, during debates and campaigning, his Muslim friends/relatives are holding up signs in support of Obama. Why would they do this if Obama had turned his back on their beliefs? This is enough to cause suspicion, is it not? Why, in your argument, is it not "o.k." to consider that it is possible that Obama does still hold to at least some of the Muslim beliefs? The truth is, we should be 'on guard', 'leery' of anyone associated with the Muslims, radical or not, peaceful or not, because of the association of their belief - deductive reasoning - that if you do not believe Muslim beliefs, woe unto you. Quotes from about.com on Muslim beliefs:

But not all Muslims today believe that jihad should be peaceful - some, in fact, explicitly recommend violence and war. Important examples of this strain of thought are Hasan al-Banna (1906-49) and Sayyid Qutb (1906-56), who followed Taymiya's arguments that jihad includes the overthrow of governments that fail to enforce the Shari'a, but then added that this jihad must occur first, before any jihad against external enemies can take place.

Muhammad 'Abd al-Salam Faraj wrote a pamphlet called The Neglected Duty, which is perhaps the best expression of this sort of thinking. This work was used to explain and justify the actions of those who assassinated Egyptian leader Anwar as-Sadat, and its author was executed right along with those directly involved in the plot.

Faraj argued not simply that armed, violent jihad is a cornerstone of Islam, but also that it is something which has been woefully negelected by Muslims in recent decades. This neglect is the direct cause of the current position of Islam in the world. To rectify this situation, force is required. Most current leaders of Muslim nations are defined as apostates - and since Islam traditionally prohibits warfare among Muslims, the assertion that these leaders are not "really" Muslims allows for violent action against them.

We are required to focus on our Islamic duties, first to apply the Law of God (the Shari'a) and the Word of God. And there can be no doubt that the first battleground of jihad is the removing of those shackles of unbelief that constrain us and substituting for them an Islamic order.

Further quote:

These ideas of a violent jihad are not the ravings of a few fringe lunatics. On the contrary, they are ideas which have influenced Islamic fundamentalism and Islamic political movements throughtout the Middle East. That these ideas have gained legitimacy is the reason why an extremists like Osama bin Laden can say to someone:

I know that you are living in stifiling poverty while other Muslims are living the good life, and I know why this is so. It is because our so-called Muslim leaders are really apostates who have sold out to the godless infidels of the West, corrupting our society and our religion. But if we fight back, restore the Shari'a, and drive off the disbelievers, then everything will be fine because a new, just social order just as Allah desires will be established.

And he won't be laughed at or driven off as someone who is polluting the pure, peaceful nature of Islam.

Even leading Muslim clerics send mixed messages regarding how peaceful Islam is. Two days before the September 11th attacks, Hamza Yusuf was outside the White House giving a speech in which he said that the U.S. "stands condemned," and that "this country has a great, great tribulation coming to it."
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/blfaq_islam_jihad.htm

Barack Obama was 'raised' in this belief. His Muslim friends/relatives support his campaign. This is a cause for suspicion.

It is true that we should have our Freedom of Religion in the United States. But, after reading the thoughts above, the Muslims really don't intend to allow that if they gain control. Barack Obama would not remotely be considered a Presidential Candidate if he proclaimed to be a Muslim. Thus, the reason, IN MY OPINION, for proclaiming to be part of a "Christian" church. THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS.

So, my opinion is derived mostly from what I've read/listened to directly from Obama's mouth.
As KapandPen stated, I am entitled to discern what my personal opinion should be, am I not? It seems that you are insisting that we (KapandPen and myself) should give in to your personal opinion, because, by golly, there's no arguing with you, you're right and we're wrong, end of story.

This forum has opened my mind to the possibility of a different candidate, Ron Paul, who is a breath of fresh air when it comes to the constitution and giving control back to the states. I have enjoyed the discussions, for the most part, but I also believe that translation of communication gets lost in this format. If it were a person to person discussion/debate I believe it would be more productive rather than full of accusations. Ultimately, we were given Free will by the Lord God. He has given us a mind to think things through, come to conclusions, and the spirit of discernment to come to those conclusions. We all come from different walks in life, thus the reason for different conclusions.
This concludes my '2 cents worth' for a while. Take care.

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Jan. 26, 2008 - Good post LKH

Thanks, LKH, for your post. Very informative. Exactly why I don't trust Obama! You made an excellent point - if Obama is not sympathetic to the Muslim cause, (or, more to the point, if he is in fact no longer a Muslim), why then would they be supporting a supposed traitor from their religion? The obvious answer is they wouldn't - they know something the press doesn't want out. Am I making assumptions or drawing conclusions? I guess that would be a matter of opinion as well.

Voting here in SC was so wild - seems like everyone is voting for someone different. One voted for Romney because of his fiscal abilities (although, after I researched the history of Mormon and its violence, I don't know that I'm comfortable with him, either). I and a few friends voted for Ron Paul. One voted for Huckabee because of his tax plan (which is pretty good, actually). One was going to vote for Thompson because he seems the most conservative. One was voting for Edwards (can you believe that!) because he "sounds" good. One was voting for McCain. This election is so up for grabs! It will be very interesting to see who comes out on top.

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Jan. 26, 2008 - Untitled Comment

LKH,

I fear that you have misunderstood what I was trying to communicate. I am VERY open to evidence contrary to what I had presented.

You said, "It seems that you are insisting that we (KapandPen and myself) should give in to your personal opinion, because, by golly, there's no arguing with you, you're right and we're wrong, end of story."

I never said anything like that. I presented evidence contrary to what had been said. KapandPen already admitted that they are going on gut feeling. All I was asking for was evidence to the contrary of what I was presenting. I wanted to know on what basis a "Christian" church that never mentions Allah or the Koran or anything about Islam could be the website of "black muslims". That's a legitimate question; would you not agree?

That has nothing to do with there being "no arguing" with me. And honestly, the fact that you have said that about me baffles me.

Now, as for Obama himself, you said, "what I posted is my opinion based on what I've read and listened to during debates broadcast on nat'l TV...words from Mr. Obama's own mouth....words from Obama's Presidential Candidate website, including some excerpts of Barack Obama's 'life story' in his own words."

I would sincerely like to see some evidence to this. Once again, I'm completely open to being proven wrong, but I honestly cannot find anything on Obama's site that talks about this. His presidential site "life story" (http://www.barackobama.com/learn/meet_barack.php) doesn't mention anything about it. It simply mentions in passing that he lived for a few years in Indonesia. But there is nothing about Islam mentioned at all. What are you seeing, and where?

Furthermore, one of the links that I posted above is from Obama's senate site (they are two different sites, but still representing him) that purported to debunk the things K&P had written above -- things that had been reported by Fox News. So I was taking his own words (or the words of his campaign). Both of us simply can't be right on this, as far as I can tell. But since you're not actually providing any links, I have no clue what "evidence" you are presenting.

Is Obama a flat-out liar? It's quite possible. But all I've asked for in this discussion is evidence (links are the easiest type of evidence to offer in these threads) showing any current link between Obama and Islam.

Once again, for the record, I am COMPLETELY open to seeing evidence to backup your opinion. But none has been shown here.

This is NOT about me being "right" and you being "wrong". Not at all. But it's about reasonable discussion where we don't just throw out accusations about someone without giving evidence.

I have not listened to all of Obama's speeches, so I can't guarantee that he hasn't said something in one of them about being a Muslim. But on the one hand, you said, "Barack Obama would not remotely be considered a Presidential Candidate if he proclaimed to be a Muslim." Then, on the other hand, you said that part of why you believe that he is a Muslim is because of things that he himself has said. That makes no sense.

If you're basing it on what he has said, then how can he be concealing it? Your statements contradict themselves.

As for the rest of your post regarding radical Islam, I never disputed any of that. That is not the issue, and I don't need any evidence of that. I'm not sure why you brought all that up, but there's no need for me to respond at any length to all of that.

The question remains:

"Where has Obama been irrefutably linked with 'radical Islam', as has been claimed in this thread?"

For those who are willing to look at the preponderance of evidence against these claims about Obama, I would suggest Googling the phrase "barack obama radical islam".

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=barack+obama+radical+islam&btnG=Google+Search

Many links will show up. Just a few of the ones that come up on that search are:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/
http://mediamatters.org/items/200612200005
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_barack_obama_muslim.htm

Look, yes you are completely entitled to your opinion (as is K&P). No one is arguing that. All I have repeatedly asked for is that you offer support to your opinion, if you are willing to state it publicly.

If someone doesn't want to bother defending their opinion, or dealing with evidence to the contrary, then it makes absolutely no sense to even bother stating it in a public forum.

Frankly, I don't think that it is I who are taking the approach of "there is no arguing with me, I'm right and you're wrong." When a statement is made that someone is a "black Muslim" on the basis of their affiliation with a Christian church, I think it's completely legitimate to ask for that statement to be defended. Likewise when someone claims that Obama will "likely hand the country over to the terrorists".

That is a pretty serious charge against someone, especially in the culture in which we find ourselves with its tense relationships between Muslims and non-Muslims, and it should be backed up with actual evidence.

For pushing that issue, I cannot apologize. But it is not motivated by any arrogance on my part. Not at all.

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Jan. 27, 2008 - Obama

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2006/12/barack_hussein.html
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/01/obama_debunking.html
http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/070325_obama.htm
http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_03_12/feature.html

The first is a link describing the so-called "debunking" of the main stream media you list above. What happened to not believing everything the main stream media puts out for all to hear/read?

The second link is a continuation/update to the first:

"More important, in his own two autobiographies, Obama writes that his teacher at the school sent a note home to his mother that Obama made trouble by making faces while the class was studying the Koran. Uh, sorry, but public schools DO NOT study the Koran. Islamic schools do. And which suras was Obama studying? How about the many suras that preach deception and killing of Infidels? It's doubtful that the school didn't teach those. It's more likely that they did. And which violent Hadiths did the school teach? We'll never know. And Obama won't be trumpeting them...

And finally, there is the glaring red flag on Obama's attendance at Fransiskus Assisi, a Catholic school.
AP reports this:
At first, Obama attended the Catholic school, Fransiskus Assisi, where documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim, the religion of his stepfather.

The document required that each student choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering _ Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant. Gibbs said he wasn't sure why the document had Obama listed as a Muslim."

The third link (this isn't all, just a small quote):

The next credibility problem for Obama's persona: Chicago is a great place to visit once the snow stops falling. As spring arrives, more investigative reporters will head to the Windy City to find out more about Obama's spiritual adviser, the Rev. Jeremiah T. Wright Jr., who was one of the organizers of Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan's 1994 Million Man March.
In Sunday's Chicago Tribune, Kirsten Scharnberg and Kim Barker report from Honolulu and Jakarta, where Obama spent his first 18 years:
"More than 40 interviews with former classmates, teachers, friends and neighbors in his childhood homes of Hawaii and Indonesia, as well as a review of public records, show … several of his oft-recited stories may not have happened in the way he has recounted them, sometimes making him look better in the retelling, and sometimes skipping over some of the most painful, private moments of his life."[ The Not So Simple Story of Barack Obama's Youth, March 25, 2007]"

Notice that Rev. Jeremiah T. Wright Jr., reported as Obama's 'spiritual leader', is indeed connected to "The Nation of Islam". And then, the quote from the Chicago Tribune states that he was indeed enrolled in the Catholic school as a Muslim.

The fourth link discusses these two books:

The Audacity of Hope, by Barack Obama
Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance, by Barack Obama

"Dreams..." is the one I was referring to when I stated "from Barak's Obama's mouth". The 'editorial' in this fourth link was enlightening, a must read into the insight of the life, and apparent lies, of Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.

So, to quote you:
"If someone doesn't want to bother defending their opinion, or dealing with evidence to the contrary, then it makes absolutely no sense to even bother stating it in a public forum."

The "evidence" of my opinion has been presented; it is as 'trustworthy' as the links you pasted from main stream media. Main stream media has a way of twisting things to suit their needs and promote their liberal agenda, as opposed to reporting the truth. It's a shame that we have to resort to truth investigations in order to get a 'well rounded' idea of what is truly going on in our society. In the end, it is still your opinion vs. my opinion; as I said before, this is my opinion.

To reiterate the reason for all the Muslim background mentioned in my last post: Radical Muslim, or Peaceful Muslim, the basics of their belief 'system' is that all who do not believe as Muslim's will parish by their (the Muslim's) hands. Muslim's aren't distancing themselves from Obama, they're supporting him, as evidenced in seeing them during his campaigns waving signs of support. Why are they supporting him if he does not hold their beliefs anymore? Again, THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS. He's the closest thing they have to 'identifying' with them and their beliefs. Being that he rides the fence on most everything, what's to say he's not also 'riding the fence' on his Christianity/Muslim beliefs?

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Jan. 27, 2008 - Untitled Comment

So, nothing from Obama's website or speech transcripts, as you claimed earlier????? Sigh. This is incredibly frustrating.

You only gave me links to the same kind of fallacious arguments that K&P was using in her comments.

Let me demonstrate the way these arguments work, according to you and the sources you have linked.

My dad was a truck driver -- still is. Does that make me a truck driver? I am not a truck driver. I am a musician. But my dad was never a musician. How could that be?

I spent two years as a child in a independent, fundamental Christian school that taught Baptistic doctrine. Does that make me a Baptist? Or a fundamentalist Christian? I am a follower of Jesus Christ, but I am neither Baptist nor a fundamentalist. How could that be?

Furthermore, my mother was a public school teacher. Yet I call myself a homeschooler and claim to homeschool our son. And furthermore, I have friends who are teachers in the public school. In fact, we actually even fellowship in our home church with a public school teacher. So we must really not be truly homeschoolers. We're apparently just using that "cover" as a means to an end.

Oh, but it's worse. I actually have Baptist pastors who read my blog, interact with it, support things I write, and support my music ministry. So that's PROOF that I'm a Baptist, right? I mean, why would they support me and consider me a friend if I don't agree with a lot of their doctrine and have left that in my past? Baptists believe their doctrine is the closest to biblical doctrine, so why would they befriend me and support me in my heresy?? One of them actually even have had me come speak in their church! So that's indisputable proof that I am a Baptist.

So there you have it. Using the same "logic" that people are using against Obama, I am a Baptist truck driver who favors public school.

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Jan. 27, 2008 - Last, FINAL response to PianoSteve

PianoSteve, You stated:

"Is Obama a flat-out liar? It's quite possible. But all I've asked for in this discussion is evidence (links are the easiest type of evidence to offer in these threads) showing any current link between Obama and Islam."

And:

"If someone doesn't want to bother defending their opinion, or dealing with evidence to the contrary, then it makes absolutely no sense to even bother stating it in a public forum."

The AP - Associated Press, the Chicago Tribune, and the two Autobiographies by Barack Obama -- These are 'reporting ' "fallacies", according to you.

So, in your infinite wisdom, please impart to me the sources that I can trust will report accurately...This way I am not listening to or reading anything that is not approved by you, since you obviously have the inside track on what is truth and what is not.
According to you, it is not appropriate to look at the person as a whole, or to investigate their background/foundation, but to take them at face value. Don't look at their track record, because this doesn't necessarily prove who they are now.

Such would be the case with the Apostle Paul, would it not? Look at his 'track record' before he made a decision for Christ. Then, once his decision for Christ was made how he then went out and preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ, over his lifetime, making a huge impact in God's Kingdom. The Apostle Paul began a NEW track record, one that would show the fruit that he bears.

I couldn't care less about your background, you're not running for President. But, as a Christian, it is my obligation to investigate/discern for myself, whether a candidate is worthy of my vote. The proof is in their actions; a person will be known by the fruit that he bears. What are Obama's 'fruit'? Let's relate back to a certain 'action' - When the national anthem is being played it is customary to pay honor and respect to this great country. Proper etiquette is taught from grade school on up. Did Obama do this? No. Will you refute this charge by stating this is a fallacy? It was blatant and deliberate, and on Nat'l TV news coverage. Even children pointed this out. I'm not even certain why Obama chose not to display this time honored tradition, but HIS ACTIONS SPEAK VOLUMES.

His Presidential Candidate website states his "stance" on the 'issues' . My comments in previous posts concerning his website is that His 'stance' on issues are amoral, and against Christian beliefs. Again, HIS ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN HIS WORDS. He supports things that do not honor the sanctity of life etc. etc. etc. And yes, these issues are 'part and parcel of the Democrat platform' and are not 'specific to Obama', but they still reflect his beliefs.

Of course, you'll look at this post and say "what does this have to do with whether or not he is Muslim" - To that I say "Everything"....it's his trustworthiness (or rather un-trustworthy), whether or not you can take him at face value. In my opinion you can not. Just because I can not find, verbatim, that Barack Obama is indeed a Muslim in disguise doesn't disprove anything. The suspicions are still there, discernment is still needed. You stated:

"This is NOT about me being "right" and you being "wrong". Not at all. But it's about reasonable discussion where we don't just throw out accusations about someone without giving evidence."

It's not so much an 'accusation' (as you call it) as it is a suspicion, a gut instinct.

As KapandPen stated earlier, it is wearisome to continue this 'discussion' with you. And to top it off, after he read all the posts, my husband is of the opinion that I should discontinue this discussion altogether, as it appears to be a fruitless endeavor. I believe him to be correct. It would not matter how many links I provided or what information those links contained; I believe your opinion about this information concerning Barack Obama would remain the same.
I did look up the link you provided above concerning Barack Obama refuting the rumors about him being a Muslim, it was a CNN link/article. So, I guess, in your opinion CNN is a reputable/facts only news station, and this is the station that I should be listening to/watching. It's good to know that CNN is so trustworthy. Thanks for the tip. (yes, I'm being sarcastic...CNN has always put a very liberal 'spin' on political issues - whom ever they favor can do no wrong, and if he/she does, CNN won't report it unless it gets Nat'l attention, and then, it's done in the best 'light' possible)

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Jan. 27, 2008 - I actually understand better now!!

You said: "...it's his trustworthiness (or rather un-trustworthy), whether or not you can take him at face value. In my opinion you can not. Just because I can not find, verbatim, that Barack Obama is indeed a Muslim in disguise doesn't disprove anything. The suspicions are still there, discernment is still needed."

Believe it or not (I hope you're sitting down), I actually understand your point as stated here!!! :)

Suspicion and gut feeling are not illegitimate. And stating it in that fashion is not something I would attack. There is no fallacy in saying, "I suspect that this might be the case because he has lied in other areas."

Believe it or not, that was actually the major point I was trying to get across in this "wearisome" discussion. The difference between stating an opinion WITH THAT QUALIFICATION and stating something as a fact (i.e., "Obama is a Muslim") without appropriate evidence.

I do apologize for the "wearisome"-ness of this conversation, as perceived by you and K&P. It was never my intent to be "wearisome", but rather to encourage a certain amount of integrity to the arguments put forth and to separate from "gut instinct" and "factual allegations".

I was not making any claims about any sources being "trustworthy" or not "trustworthy". You introduced all that sarcasm. My point was about the proper way to support an argument. That's why I wrote the comment about my background not being connected to who I am as an individual presently. Not because I think you should care about my background (thank you for stating so clearly that you don't give a rip about me, completely missing my rhetorical point), but to illustrate the point of fallacious arguments.

But again, my apologies for it seeming that I was putting forth some sort of arrogance. Honestly, your sarcastic comments to me are not at all necessary, and came across pretty hurtful. I hate that you felt the need to take the conversation to that level.

Go in peace. I will bother you no more.

Respectfully,
steve

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Jan. 28, 2008 - Does this matter?

I've been staying out of this for a while - but, do we care? As homeschoolers - we know that Obama Osama Hussein (as Ted Kennedy called him) is fighting for none of us.

Our primaries here in Florida are in two days. But the one thing I've learned from this is that the RP campaign is not just a Presidential campaign. It's too important. We all need to do what we can to continue this and press him into the general election if he doesn't make it in the primaries.

Guliani is out after Florida. From what I've been following - there's a strong possibility that Ron Paul will beat Hucklebee. If that is the case - then he will quit (at least by Super Tuesday) that will leave Ron Paul against Mitt and John McCain. Word has it that McCain is running out of funds too and with Ron Paul making him look like a fool on the economy (Mitt Romney is using this to his advantage now and hammering McCain on this issue). Both of these guys have enough baggage to be destroyed on and the stage will be set for the big names to come in and back Ron Paul. There have been major moves on this - even in the talk radio environment where both GB and Rush are forbidden by their networks from directly supporting RP, however, both are making BIG HINTS right now and specifically arguing major RP planks. The unsettled economy is playing a major part in this.

If it's too late for Ron Paul to catch up on delegates at that point - then we have to push him into the General Election. Hopefully Hillary will be the democratic nominee because RP will crush her politically (unless she sends RP to meet Vince Foster) and he'll easily take care of Romney (or McCain if he wins)

RP just brought on some political heavyweights (as of today) for political directors for the campaign. Hopefully - they will be able to organize the disorganization at RP HQ.

Here's a progress report from Ron Paul himself on this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0nJH6zB9VM

We took our homeschool on the road today. I bought an electric stapler and some rubber bands and attached them to a thousand+ RP slim jims and went door to door. We've never done anything like this before and have never been inspired to do it. It was a lot of fun and I actually enjoyed some of the reactions of some Hillary supporters. (Shrieking, tearing, and what not.) As I write this - I'm now tending my blown kneecap and sunburn. Tomorrow night - after work - we go down for a generator lit Sign Wave and then after that we go plant our "Sign Bombs" at all the voting locations. This has really been fun, educational and a memory that we'll never forget. It's really brought us all very close together as a family.

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Jan. 28, 2008 - Untitled Comment

PianoSteve: I appreciate your honesty. I am sorry for becoming increasingly sarcastic...it's one of my many flaws that I battle on a continual basis. I'm glad that our discussions have led to better understanding. I understand (now!) what you were aiming for in the discussion. This is what I meant about translation of communication gets lost in this posting format.

Rpisgr8: Thanks for the RP update. I can honestly say I hope for the best...that RP ends up being our Republican candidate. But, by the time Alaska gets to vote (and we have so few 'delegates'), the decision will have been made for the most part. Specifically, Super Tuesday. My sister lives in Florida and I've kept her 'abreast' of RP info.

Looking forward to more RP info posts.

Take care...and God Bless You All!
LKH

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Jan. 28, 2008 - Untitled Comment

LKH: I'm not sure when Alaska's primary is, but I feel the same way about ours here in North Carolina. We don't vote until May, and while I plan to vote for Ron Paul on principle, no matter what has happened up until then, I would love to be voting for him in the middle of all this build-up and not "after the fact".

The funny thing is, I was saying just a couple of weeks ago that I wish we would have one national primary day where everyone voted at once. However, given the way this race is going (6 out of 11 Repubs have dropped out so far, and like RPisGr8 said, Guiliani is about out. Huckabee's campaign is also broke and he's slipping, so he may very well be out soon, too.) I think there's a benefit to this because it has weeded some out, and Ron Paul has a better chance of generating some momentum.

We'll see what happens...

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Jan. 3, 2009 - Untitled Comment

I wish he could come over here to Illinois and help us out. We sure could use some integrity in our state Senate here in Illinois.

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