Jun. 17, 2009
Train Them Up

“Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” Proverbs 22:6

A homeschool mom recently shared with me an interesting conversation she had with a confused friend about Proverbs 22:6. Her friend’s distorted reasoning can be summed up as follows: since we, as sinful parents cannot save our sinful kids, why should we try to follow the guideline/command given in Proverbs 22:6?

First off, anyone who believes they can save their child's soul needs to re-read the Bible, especially Ephesians 2:1-10. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Now that we cleared that up, let's quickly look at what Proverbs 22:6 is really teaching parents. First, notice that the Bible says that we should "train up a child" not train up an adult. Why a child? Our gracious Lord is teaching us to train children because these are their most impressionable learning years. Do you think it is any coincidence that the public schools and their like-mined socialists are working on getting our children younger and younger?

If you are among many who think that public schools are neutral and that there is no underlying agenda, please read the following quotes by just a few liberal educationalists and secular-humanists/socialists who understand the importance of capturing little minds.

"We do not need any more preaching about right or wrong. The old ‘thou shall nots’ simply are not relevant. Values clarification is a method for teachers to change the values of children without getting caught." -- Dr. Sidney Simon, Lecturer, Secularist & Educator

"Having found the present generation composed of materials almost unmalleable, I am about transferring my efforts to the next. Men are cast-iron; but children are wax. Strength expended upon the latter may be effectual, which would make no impression upon the former."  –Horace Mann founder of public schools

"Every child in America entering school at the age of five is mentally ill because he comes to school with certain allegiances to our founding fathers, toward our elected officials, toward his parents, toward a belief in a supernatural being, and toward the sovereignty of this nation as a separate entity. It is up to you as teachers to make all of these sick children well -- by creating the international child of the future." -- Dr. Chester M. Pierce, Professor of Education at Harvard (1972)

" I am convinced that the battle for humankind’s future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers that correctly perceive their role as proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being … The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and new. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing the classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level—preschool day care or large state universities." John Dunphy  (The Humanist magazine, Jan/Feb 1983)

"He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future." —Adolf Hitler

"Give me your 4-year-olds, and in a generation I will build a socialist state." —Vladimir Lenin

"Education is thus a most powerful ally of humanism, and every American school is a school of humanism. What can a theistic Sunday school's meeting for an hour once a week and teaching only a fraction of the children do to stem the tide of the five-day  program of humanistic teaching?" - Charles F.  Potter, Signer of the Humanist Manifesto

"There is no God and there is no soul. Hence, there are no needs for the props of traditional religion. With dogma and creed excluded, then immutable truth is also dead and buried. There is no room for fixed, natural law or moral absolutes." --John Dewey, co-author, signer of the Humanist Manifesto and founder of today's public schools

The public school model and its curriculum is working on the kids young so they can indoctrinate them to think like secular-humanists/socialists. Period.

By the way they (the Liberals) are having a tremendous amount of success. Makes you wonder why the Church (Shepherds and sheep alike) do not make this a topic of utmost importance, huh?

So going back to Proverbs 22:6, why should we train up our children in the way they should go if we cannot save them? How about because we love our Lord and want to obey Him? Let us obey our Lord and let God be God. "If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15.

Listen to the wisdom of Matthew Henry, a former homeschooling father of nine kids who was homeschooled himself and was considered by the likes of Spurgeon and Whitefield to be a superb and gifted Bible commentator: "Train up children in that age of vanity, to keep them from the sins and snares of it, in that learning age, to prepare them for what they are designed for. Catechise [instruct] them; initiate them; keep them under discipline. Train them as soldiers, who are taught to handle their arms, keep rank, and observe the word of command. Train them up, not in the way they would go (the bias of their corrupt hearts would draw them aside), but in the way they should go, the way in which, if you love them, you would have them go."

God clearly tells us to train up our children in the way they should go. If we don't or only make a half-hearted attempt to train them up, their sinful nature will take them on completely different path in life. We need to start when they are young because if we don't, we will make our labor all the more difficult. Again, quoting Matthew Henry, "The branch is easily bent when it is tender."

Let me put it as simply as possible. Children would naturally follow their corrupt hearts if parents did not train them up as they should. This makes them easy prey in the hands of the public school gurus. Therein lies the reason we should follow Proverbs 22:6. Either we train them, or someone else will.

—David d'Escoto is a teaching elder, the co-author of "The Little Book of Big Reasons to Homeschool" and its companion Bible study, he also co-hosted the former radio program "Homeschooling for Life." He and his wife, Kim, have homeschooled their five children for over 10 years. Visit their website to sign-up for their free webinars and newsletters at http://dexios.info.

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Comments

Jun. 17, 2009 - thanks for the reminder

Posted by hymnstudies

Gena,
I don't have time to read a lot of blogs, but scrolling down through the home page of homeschoolblogger today I came across this article from David d'Escoto that you posted and appreciate it. I have greatly benefitted from David and Kim's work.
The point I often make is that, yes, parents cannot save their children--only God can save, but as parents we have a responsibility to "train" our children so that their hearts will be prepared to accept God's grace by faith rather than to reject Him. And you, David, and I all know that it is so much easier to do when you do not have to fight the error and ungodliness into which they are immersed in the public schools.
Thanks to you and David for the good reminder. I do miss being volunteer coordinator for TOS, but I still enjoy the magazine!
Wayne S. Walker

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Jul. 1, 2009 - Home-education

Posted by John Green

I have just discovered this blog and have been browsing. I have got the distinct impression that, among many of your contributors, home-educating seems to be a religion. Another impression I have got is that these people believe “socialism” is some sort of disease. You should remember that Jesus Christ, if He ever existed, was a socialist. Read the account of his life in the New testament.

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Jul. 2, 2009 - Your post

Posted by John Green

Dear David,

In your post to this website, which I have just read, you mention several times "children with a corrupt heart". Please explain what you mean. How can an organ of the body be corrupted? If it can be corrupted, who is responsible?

I have four children and seven grandchildren and none of their organs are "corrupted".

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Jul. 2, 2009 - Re: Corrupt Heart

Posted by Anonymous

Good question.

I hope some of the following verses shed light on your question about our hearts being "corrupt", yes, even when we are are young.

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Gen. 6:5)

And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done (Gen. 8:21)

What is man, that he can be pure?
Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous? (Job 15:14)

Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins. (Eccles. 7:20)

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalm 51:5)

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it? (Jer. 17:9)

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh (Eze 36:26)

If you really want to dig deeper into what our corrupt hearts are all about, please read C.H. Spurgeon's sermon on our hearts of stone.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0456.htm

<<"According to the Word of God, man's heart is by nature like a stone; but God, through his grace, removes the stony heart and gives a heart of flesh...Remember, again, I am not speaking of the heart of man physically, I am not speaking of it even as I would if I were teaching mental science; we are only now regarding it from a spiritual point of view. Men do receive mental impressions under the preaching of the Word; they often get so uneasy that they cannot shake off their thoughts; but alas! their goodness is as the early cloud, and as the morning dew, and it vanishes as a dream. But, spiritually, you can no more impress the heart of man than you might leave a bruise upon a stone.">>- Spurgeon

Thanks for the question.

David

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Jul. 3, 2009 - The Heart

Posted by John Green

Dear David,

Thank you for your reply. Many of your quotes seem to be gobbledegook to me. The heart is a muscle, which has evolved over time so that it can pump blood around the body of mammals. As such, it has no emotion and cannot be “corrupted”. It is certainly not made of stone and does not have a “spiritual” dimension. The heart is often associated with romantic love, particularly in poetry, but we all know that really this is nonsense.

What on earth does this mean:
"Remember, again, I am not speaking of the heart of man physically, I am not speaking of it even as I would if I were teaching mental science; we are only now regarding it from a spiritual point of view. Men do receive mental impressions under the preaching of the Word; they often get so uneasy that they cannot shake off their thoughts; but alas! their goodness is as the early cloud, and as the morning dew, and it vanishes as a dream. But, spiritually, you can no more impress the heart of man than you might leave a bruise upon a stone."

This sounds like something out of California in the 1960s.

Please do not turn to the bible for an understanding of physiology. The bible was written by men at a time when there was no understanding of science.

Thanks for your reply.

John

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Jul. 3, 2009 - One more time for good measure-Heart

Posted by Anonymous

John,

In order to humor you one more time and to keep it as simple as possible, please see the following points.

1. The Old Testament was originally written in mostly Hebrew and some Aramic.

2. The New Testament was originally written in Greek.

3. Whether you believe the Bible is God's Word or not does not change points 1 and 2.

4. The O.T. writers used the Aramic word "Bal" which means "mind, heart" and also used over 500 times the Hebrew word "Leb" which can be understood to mean "inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding; soul, heart (of man), mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory, etc."

5. The N.T. writers used the word "Kardia" which can be understood to mean, "denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life, the vigour and sense of physical life, the centre and seat of spiritual life, the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours, of the will and character

6. In English (please look in your dictionary) we even have one of the definitions for the word "heart" to mean— "the heart regarded as the center of a person's thoughts and emotions, love or compassion".

7. Let's put it altogether the word "heart" has many more meanings than just the physical organ that pumps blood and does in fact have more than one meaning in the English language. For example have you ever heard of the phrase? "Let's get to the heart of the matter." Or how about any of the following titles to hit songs?

- Don't Go Breaking My Heart by Elton John and Kiki Dee
- Un-break My Heart by Toni Braxton
- Hungry Heart by Bruce Springsteen
- My Heart Will Go On by Celine Dion
- Owner of a Lonely Heart by Yes
- Where Do Broken Hearts Go by Whitney Houston
- Total Eclipse of the Heart by Bonnie Tyler
- Achy Breaky Heart by Billy Ray Cyrus
- Groove is in the Heart by Deee-Lite
- Tell It To My Heart - Taylor Dayne
- Your Cheatin Heart - Hank Williams Sr.

Let's take ole' Hank Williams lyrics and see if he was referring to heart as an organ pumping blood.

Your cheatin' heart,
Will make you weep,
You'll cry and cry,
And try to sleep,
But sleep won't come,
The whole night through,
Your cheatin heart, will tell on you...

When tears come down,
Like falling rain,
You'll toss around,
And call my name,
You'll walk the floor,
The way I do,
Your cheatin' heart, will tell on you...

Your cheatin' heart,
Will pine some day,
And crave the love,
You threw away,
The time will come,
When you'll be blue,
Your cheatin' heart, will tell on you...

When tears come down,
Like falling rain,
You'll toss around,
And call my name,
You'll walk the floor,
The way I do,
Your cheatin' heart, will tell on you...

I don't think Hank or any of those above songs listed are referring to "heart being a muscle" but are really about "a person's thoughts and emotions, love or compassion."

What makes these exchange of views all the more cumbersome is that I am getting the drift that one must first educate you in order to have a normal discussion with you about such simple matters on what does the word "heart" really mean.

All of the above should have addressed the heart of your question sufficiently.

Thanks,

David

PS- If you would rather keep on discussing the semantics on what the word "heart" means, then I will bow out of this discussion. (Proverbs 26:4)

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Jul. 3, 2009 - The heart

Posted by John Green

Dear David,

Thank you for the lyrics to the Hank Williams song; I enjoyed reading them. However, I am puzzled to know why you think these lyrics, plus the long list of song titles, has anything whatever to do with you previous writing.

I have re-read your original posting and I am sorry to say, David, it is all gobbledegook.

At no point in your writing did you make it clear that by the word “heart” you meant the “fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours, of the will and character”. You would have been on much safer ground if the organ you had chosen for your analogy had been the brain. However, the problem for you is that the authors of the Old Testament knew even less about the workings of the brain than they did of the heart. I can’t imagine that you believe all those quotations you give from the Old Testament.

You have so far failed to answer my question and explain why this “fountain and seat”, is corrupt. You might begin by explaining to me where this “fountain and seat” is located, if it is not the heart or the brain. And why, particularly, do children suffer from this corruption?

Please don’t drop out of this conversation; try and convince me.

Best regards,

John.

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Jul. 4, 2009 - The heart

Posted by John Green

David,

Please don’t go away.

Let’s forget about hearts, brains, fountains and seats. If you strip away all the gobbledegook, the point you seem to be making is that children have a corrupt core “which they would naturally follow if parents did not train them up as they should. This makes them easy prey in the hands of the public school gurus.” You suggest that “the public school model and its curriculum is working on the kids young so they can indoctrinate them to think like secular-humanists/socialists. Period.”

This sounds like one of those terrifying conspiracy theories. Do you have any evidence of this?

I come back to my question: where does this corruption of your children come from and who is responsible? I don’t see it in my children or grandchildren.

Best regards,

John.

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Jul. 4, 2009 - For Mr. Green

Posted by Anonymous

John please see my replies below.

You wrote:

<<At no point in your writing did you make it clear that by the word “heart” you meant the “fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours, of the will and character”. You would have been on much safer ground if the organ you had chosen for your analogy had been the brain. However, the problem for you is that the authors of the Old Testament knew even less about the workings of the brain than they did of the heart....>>

My response:
What I have been laboring to explain to you is that when the Bible uses the word "heart" it encompasses the mind and will too. Let me quote Rev. Voddie Baucham from his excellent book, "Family Driven Faith", "The word [heart] means 'inner man, mind, or will.' Remember, the heart is a muscle that pumps blood, so this has to be a figurative reference...The problem is that over time we have forgotten that this is a figure of speech. Many of us have completely divorced the concept...We speak of the heart as though it were the opposite of the mind and will...We don't literally mean that the [heart] muscle in the middle of our chest has a mind of its own."

So when seeing the word "heart being used in Scripture it is frequently referring to our minds and our will. We also use the "mind" figuratively today because one of the definitions for the word "mind" in our English dictionary is— 'the will or determination to achieve something" and words that are synonymous with our word "mind" are easily found in a Thesaurus: inclination, desire, wish, urge, notion, fancy, intention, will, opinion, way of thinking, outlook, attitude, view, viewpoint, point of view

Notice we see that the word "will" can be used as a word that is synonymous with the word "mind". Hmmm.

So as to finally close this discussion once and for all when you see the word "heart" being used in Scripture and also in our own English language, it encompasses our mind and wills too.
Again see the words that are synonymous for the word "heart" in our English language: emotions, feelings, sentiments; soul; love, affection, passion, compassion, sympathy, humanity, feeling(s), fellow feeling, tenderness, softness, empathy, understanding; kindness, goodwill, enthusiasm, keenness, eagerness, spirit, determination, resolve, purpose, courage, nerve, willpower, fortitude; informal guts, spunk, center, middle, hub, core, nucleus, eye, bosom. (All these words are easily found in a Thesaurus).

It appears the writers of the Old Testament had a much deeper understanding of the word "heart" than our shallow culture does today.


You wrote:

<<...the point you seem to be making is that children have a corrupt core “which they would naturally follow if parents did not train them up as they should. This makes them easy prey in the hands of the public school gurus.” You suggest that “the public school model and its curriculum is working on the kids young so they can indoctrinate them to think like secular-humanists/socialists. Period.”

This sounds like one of those terrifying conspiracy theories. Do you have any evidence of this?>>

My response:


There is so much evidence that your mind would explode in reading it all (meaning here your physical mind).

Please copy and paste the below links in your web browser and also remember to click on any hot linked words within the article they will take you to the "evidence" that you are missing.

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91002

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=96037

http://www.crosswalk.com/homeschool/11603305/

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=102269


There is a lot more evidence but this will plenty to get you caught up to speed.


You wrote:

<<I can’t imagine that you believe all those quotations you give from the Old Testament You have so far failed to answer my question and explain why this “fountain and seat”, is corrupt. You might begin by explaining to me where this “fountain and seat” is located, if it is not the heart or the brain. And why, particularly, do children suffer from this corruption?....I come back to my question: where does this corruption of your children come from and who is responsible? I don’t see it in my children or grandchildren.>>

AND in an earlier post

<<Please do not turn to the bible for an understanding of physiology. The bible was written by men at a time when there was no understanding of science. >>

My response:

It dawned on me as I read your replies (from your above statement) that you may have quite a different worldview than me. You seem to hold God's Word in low esteem. I have some questions that will help us be more productive in our discussion. Please do answer them to the best of your ability. It will help clear some things up for me. (1 Cor. 1:23)

1. Do you believe in God?

2. For you who is Jesus Christ?

3. For you what is the Bible and how did it come about?

4. For you if you believe in heaven, how does one enter in?

The above 4 short questions will help me understand you better. I am simply using Scripture and not any fancy biblical terminology and you appear to be struggling to follow along. I have my suspicions as to why this may be so.

Have a great 4th!

David

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Jul. 4, 2009 - The heart

Posted by John Green

David,

I forgot that today is a special day in your neck of the woods. Unforgivable from the former colonial power! Sorry!

Let me start by answering your four questions:

1. Do I believe in God?
Answer; No, of course not.

2. For me who is Jesus Christ?
Answer: A New Testament prophet for whom there seems to be some historical evidence of existence. Widely regarded as the first socialist. Claimed to be the Son of God.

3. For you what is the Bible and how did it come about?
Answer: Regarded as the Holy Scripture by Christians, occupying the same position in this religion as the The Holy Qur'an does in Islam and the Torah in the Jewish religion. Contains a version of the history of parts of the middle east and a ridiculously childish description of the formation of the universe. Presents a picture, especially the Old Testament, of a cruel and vindictive God, although less so that the Qur’an. It has many authors, usually recording events long after their historical happenings, based upon spoken versions handed down by successive generations (as much was in those days). Revised many times (including by the Catholic Church in Rome, usually to meet the needs of changing religious politics). Because of this, its philosophy is much less out of tune with modern civilisation compared to the Qur’an. By the way, much of the text was written in Aramaic, not Aramic, this being the ancient Hebrew language. The various translations to modern English account for the very many different interpretations of the meaning of these ancient texts.


4. For me, do I believe in heaven, if so, how do I get in.
Answer; No, of course not. There is no evidence of life after death so why invent a paradise. I’m sorry David, but this is all there is. We must make the best of it. As there is no heaven I have absolutely no chance of getting in, but then we are all in the same boat.

Let’s now dispense with all these semantics. Whatever you want to call this secret place (heart, mind, brain, will etc, etc), please answer my questions (I have answered all your questions):why is it corrupted, who by and why particularly do children have this problem? This is my fourth time of asking.

I have not yet had the time to follow up the references you kindly provided, but I think I can guess at the message. I reached this website while researching information about home-educating children as I am considering this as an option for my son who has poor concentration, is easily distracted in the classroom situation and would benefit from 1:1 instruction. My search lead me to several websites based in the USA. I soon realised that there were mainly two motivations for home-education parents in the USA, a profound contempt for the state school system and the wish to base an education around a belief in God. I read you post and was intrigued enough to ask my questions, repeated in the paragraph above.

If the school system is as bad as so many bloggers suggest it is a disgrace and should not be tolerated. You may want to read a posting I made a few days ago on Spunky’s blog as part of a discussion about proposed legislation that would affect UK home-educators. The US posters all saw these proposals as threatening whereas they are simply designed to raise standards among home-educators. In this blog I explain some of the elements of the UK education system that are raising standards, routing out bad teachers and closing bad schools. You would have to judge whether you think this would work in your schools in the US.

Finally David, please answer my questions and please do not pray for me!

Regards,

John Green

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Jul. 6, 2009 - The heart

Posted by John Green

David,

I have found time to read the first reference you provided in your last post and what a surprise! I expected to find some independent research that would support your fear of a government plot to produce ungodly children via the school system. It turned out to be an article written by YOU!!! There was no evidence at all provided by your tongue-in-cheek article. You quote statistics showing a falling away of religious belief in American children as they reach the age of majority. This, David, is happening in most countries around the world, with the exception of the Islamic world. As children mature, they begin to think for themselves and reject ideas, from whatever source, that they do not believe or accept. This was my own experience. I was raised by Christian parents and attended Sunday School until I was 11 or 12. By that age I realised that I did not believe all the guff I was being given on Sundays and remain of that opinion. David, this is not a Government plot. It is normal; it is healthy. It’s happening all around the world.

By the way, what’s this obsession with “socialism” that I find with you and other posters on this and Spunky’s website? Would you care to define what you believe a socialist is?

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Jul. 6, 2009 - The heart

Posted by John Green

David,

I have now read all four of the references you provided. Guess what, they are all written by YOU!!! Surely you can do better than that. I have to say that two in particular read as hysterical rants. What the hell is a socialistic/secular-humanistic worldview?

Let me explain something to you David. It is the parents, yes the parents, responsibility, not the schools, to set an example on how children should conduct their lives. It is parents who should provide the role model for their children. If so many American children are failing, then look to the parents. That’s where the responsibility lies. You cannot, let me repeat, cannot leave it all to the schools. If you do you are failing your children.

If you want a religious education for your children then do what millions of likeminded parents do around the world, set up a faith school.

David, I have come to the conclusion that you are most probably a deluded, paranoid man. I hoped we could have a sensible discussion on the possible benefits of home-education but having read you rants I sense a dangerous man here.

Goodbye David.

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Jul. 6, 2009 - For Mr. Green

Posted by Anonymous

Thanks John for your feedback.

1. Do I believe in God?

Your wrote: <<Answer; No, of course not.>>

I am sorry to hear that. Dr. Bahnsen said it best when he wrote the following, "The life of the unbeliever is riddled with such inconsistency. He will presuppose human dignity and attend a funeral to honor a dead friend or relative, even though he previously argued that man is, in principle, no different from any other product of evolution like a horse or dog. The unbeliever will insist that man is nothing more than a complex of bio-chemical factors controlled by the laws of physics—and then kiss his wife and children when he goes home, as though they share love with each other. He will argue that in sexual relations ‘anything goes’ (there are no moral absolutes)—but then indignantly condemn child molesters or morally repudiate necrophilia. He will suggest that the things which happen in the universe happen randomly—by ‘chance’—but then turn around and look for regularities, law-like explanations of events, and uniformity or predictability in the things studied by natural science. The non-Christian does not have a workable worldview, and he exposes its weakness at every turn in his life.”


2. For me who is Jesus Christ?
You wrote: <<Answer: A New Testament prophet for whom there seems to be some historical evidence of existence. Widely regarded as the first socialist. Claimed to be the Son of God.>>

I think you may have very limited understanding on who Christ was and is and what His teachings are. I can see how some do misconstrue Jesus teachings and thereby think He was teaching socialism but that is so far from the actual Truth as to what Jesus' message was. I could elaborate if you want but I know that is off our main topic. There is actually quite a bit of historical evidence of Jesus existence, in fact one great historian wrote the following about Jesus Christ:
"Jesus of Nazareth, without money and arms, conquered more millions than Alexander the Great, Caesar, Mohammed, and Napoleon; without science and learning, he shed more light on things human and divine than all philosophers and scholars combined; without the eloquence of school, he spoke such words of life as were never spoken before or since, and produced effects which lie beyond the reach of orator or poet; without writing a single line, he set more pens in motion, and furnished themes for more sermons, orations, discussions, learned volumes, works of art, and songs of praise than the whole army of great men of ancient and modern times." (Historian Philip Schaff)

Also as far as His claim on being the Son of God, C.S. Lewis pretty much calls our bluff on this one:

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

3. For you what is the Bible and how did it come about?

You wrote: <<Answer: Regarded as the Holy Scripture by Christians, occupying the same position in this religion as the The Holy Qur'an does in Islam and the Torah in the Jewish religion. ...>>

There are several problems with this line of thinking that many books have been written about it. There are several points that could be made on why the Bible is reliable such as fulfilled prophecies, historically accuracy, and thousands of examples of manuscript evidence to name but a few examples. Below links should help in doing further research on these topics.

http://www.faithfacts.org/search-for-truth/maps/manuscript-evidence

http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/prophecy-bible-and-jesus

http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html

4. For me, do I believe in heaven, if so, how do I get in.

You wrote:
<<Answer; No, of course not. There is no evidence of life after death so why invent a paradise. I’m sorry David, but this is all there is. We must make the best of it. As there is no heaven I have absolutely no chance of getting in, but then we are all in the same boat.>>

We are very far apart on this issue. I see a world that screams a Creator. I see world that could not have come about via random chance (aka nothing) plus a whole bunch of time. I could on and on but again this is not our main topic of discussion.

You wrote:
<<why is it corrupted, who by and why particularly do children have this problem?>>

Obviously you have gathered by now that I am a Christian and therefore see reality much differently than a non-believer. I am to assume that you see children as blank slates, similar to that of the atheist B.F. Skinner's view that children just need a little tweaking and behavior modification and presto! Everything will turn out fine. Remember it was Mr. Skinner who once wrote, "Give me a child and I'll shape him into anything." If I am correct to assume that you hold to that view of what a child is (blank slate) and just simply needs some proper nurturing/guidance then I can see how words like "corrupt hearts" wouldn't make a bit of sense to you.

As to give you a straight-forward short answer to your question about our "corrupt hearts". I will try to explain it without using a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. We are all born with hearts (minds & wills) that are by nature corrupt, meaning that we all have the innate ability to lie, cheat, steal, hurt another person, etc., and do not have to be taught such things by others. Something is wrong within all of us from our birth. I assume that at some time in your life you have, like me, lied, cheated, stolen, hurt another, etc. Some of these failures in our character began to manifest when we were very young and were not learned. Your children and grand children may not exhibit these character faults as often as some other children but I am sure that no matter how sweet and innocent that you might think your children are, they too have lied, cheated, etc. Cutting to the chase. If children are not guided (trained) properly then these character faults will not get better but continue to worsen (increased lying, cheating, etc). No matter if a parent is a believer or not, I am certain that they do not want their children to grow up to be liars, cheaters and thieves.

I could tell you about the 4th century debate between Pelagius and Augustine that addressed man's original spiritual condition and also explain what the Bible clearly teaches about man's fallen state but I am getting the drift that none of that would really matter to you.

You wrote:
<<I have not yet had the time to follow up the references you kindly provided, but I think I can guess at the message.>>

You should read the evidence because it will shed some light on what is transpiring in our culture. I do not expect you to be concerned about the next generation falling away from the Church but I think you would be concerned about the hundreds of billions of gov't waste (yours and mine tax dollars), pathetic academic results (USA heading rapidly towards the bottom of barrel among industrialized nations in math and science), 1 out of 5 high school graduates are functionally illiterate, rising violence and bullying in the public schools, and dramatic increase of sexual activity along with a millions of kids a year picking up and STD, etc. I know you care about your kids and grandkids so these are issues that I am guessing would be a concern to you as a parent. Again you may be from outside of the US and none of this is of concern to you. Well, at the very least you can see how gov't can really screw things up, huh?

You wrote:
<<I reached this website while researching information about home-educating children as I am considering this as an option for my son who has poor concentration, is easily distracted in the classroom situation and would benefit from 1:1 instruction.>>

By all means you should look into homeschooling him. Study after study shows that he will do heads and shoulder better than the kids coming out of today's public schools. It is pretty hard to beat 1 on 1 teaching, would you not agree?

You wrote:
<<You may want to read a posting I made a few days ago on Spunky’s blog as part of a discussion about proposed legislation that would affect UK home-educators. The US posters all saw these proposals as threatening whereas they are simply designed to raise standards among home-educators.>>

Gov't should not be in the business of educating it's citizens. I know all of the empty arguments that many folks throw out but the facts are really this simple. In America if people wanted to hire somebody to do a worse job than our government is doing, that would be virtually impossible. I mean who else could spend well over a HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS A YEAR and get such pathetic results year after year and still keep their job? Need I say more?

You wrote:
<<Finally David, please answer my questions and please do not pray for me!>>

I hope the above helped answer some of your questions. As far as praying for you? Too late.

Peace,

-David

PS- Good video on better understanding who God is (part 1 of 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRPr_vtN2rY

~ Permanent Link

Jul. 7, 2009 - The heart

Posted by John Green

David,

I have to be honest with you; I think you have some very weird ideas, probably resulting from some of the stuff you seem to be reading.

Let’s take Dr. Bahnsen, whoever he is. I am an atheist as are most of my friends. I don’t recognise any of the descriptions given by Br. Bahnsen. Let me educate you David. This will come as a great shock to you but you need to know it. You do NOT need to believe in God, or hold any other belief in the supernatural, to be a good citizen, to loved thy neighbour, to do all the good things that Christ wished upon his disciples. I know you will find that hard to belief, David, but try.

Let’s look at the other side of the coin. Let’s look at all those religious communities in the USA, sharing your beliefs and “worldviews” (whatever that means), who regularly abuse their children, including sexual abuse. What about the Catholic Church, sharing exactly your “worldview” who have tolerated and protected predatory paedophiles, particularly in the USA and Ireland, allowing them to bugger generations of innocent boys and rape innocent girls. But in your worldview that’s probably OK because the priests and nuns were good Christian folk and the children are corrupt and infused with original sin. What about those deeply religious men whose beliefs in a just God were as strong as yours, who destroyed the twin towers in New York as a punishment from God for the sins of America. We had similar deeply religious men attacking the transport systems in London. How about those committed Christains who have murdered doctors for performing abortions. Lastly, what about Ted Arthur Haggard, the highly respected (by Christians) American Evangelical Preacher who preached that abortionists and homosexuals should be burnt at the stake. He turned out to be a rampant queer, spending a fortune of his congregation’s donations on male prostitutes. Did Dr. Bahnsen mention any of this in his book? Shall I go on?

Open your eyes David.

I have a good understanding of Jesus Christ and his teachings. If everyone followed His code of behaviour the world would be a better place than it is now. But what you fail to realise, David, is that He does not have a monopoly on this philosophy. What he espoused had been said by many before him and many after him. Much of what He preached is in tune with the way most atheists wish to lead their lives. He is in agreement with much that I believe in. I am an atheist David because I do not believe in God, heaven, creationism, etc, etc but I am still a good man. Think about that David.

As for the bible being “reliable”, if you believe the story of the creation as given in Genesis and the many fables such as Noah and his ark, then you will believe anything. David, it is absolute codswallop.

David, where is the evidence for life after death and the handiwork of a creator. (Please don’t quote the bible or some obscure author-it won’t wash).

Let’s now look at children. You seem to believe that children are by nature “corrupt” and will be responsible for evil unless “trained-up” to be good Christians (presumably you think this corruption is located in human DNA although you do not offer an opinion). You quote examples of lying and cheating etc. Let me explain. As children develop they learn survival skills that help them to survive in the world. At a very early age they are very protective of their possessions and need to learn to share. They may be violent to other children who want access to their stuff. They learn at this early stage that some of their actions will result in a reprimand. It is quite natural and understandable that they will deny responsibility for their actions to avoid punishment. David, these are not “failings in character” but the very normal process of learning to live in a world with other people. I am astonished that you have raised children without understanding the process. When your children were “naughty” it wasn’t a sign of original sin or the work of the devil. You have admitted to lying and cheating yourself, despite your Christian beliefs. Don’t feel guilty, David, just don’t make a habit of it.

You are right; a 4th century debate between Pelagius and Augustine is irrelevant so don’t let’s go there.

You will have read my last post by now so you will know how disappointing your four references were. It expected them to throw some light on the topic.

I am still coming to a decision regarding home-educating my son. However, read the post on Spunky’s blog for the evidence that very many home-educated children in the USA are falling far behind the standards reached in American public schools, despite the poor performance of these schools that you have highlighted.

Let’s turn to the responsibly of government. It is a fundamental responsibility of government to ensure free access for everyone to quality education, to provide suitable resources and to monitor performance. This works in all developed countries except, apparently, USA. The system in the UK operates as follows: all parents are required by law to ensure their children attend school from age five until 18 unless they make suitable alternative arrangements. Most schools are funded out of a mixture of central government and local government funds. A minority of parents are able to send their children to private fee-paying schools which provide an educational advantage because of higher teacher-to-pupil ratios. There is a national curriculum for all schools, designed by government advisors, and all schools are regularly inspected by a government-funded independent inspectorate empowered to sack inefficient teachers and close failing schools. All pupils sit external examinations, marked by external markers, which a gateway to university.

In the USA, people fear the government; in Europe the government fear the people. This is the result of democracy. If you are dissatisfied with your public schools you should do something about it. However, this will be very difficult to achieve because in the USA you do not live in a true democracy. Yes that’s right David. There are too many powerful vested interests in the USA who have too many politicians in their pockets and so thwart the wishes of the people. Here are some of them, pharmaceutical companies, medical unions, the gun lobby, the religious right, anti-abortion lobby, pro-smoking lobby, anti-climate change lobby etc, etc.

If Jesus Christ was able to visit Washington tomorrow, having cut his hair, had a shave and put on a suit, he would be demanding universal healthcare for everyone, free-of-charge, a universal effective education system, a total ban on the carrying and use of guns, a demand that America stops consuming a quarter of the world’s finite resources, a demand that America pays its fair share of financial help to the third world. But Washington would not listen.

David, please think about all of this. There is still time to change.

~ Permanent Link

Jul. 7, 2009 - Final response to Mr. Green

Posted by Anonymous

Thanks John for your replies. Due to the fact that you and I have a life other than blogging and responding to one another. I need to let you know that this will be my last response here and if you still feel compelled to discuss some issues further, feel free to email me at davidandkim@dexios.info where I can respond to you further. With all that said...

YOU WROTE:
<< I expected to find some independent research that would support your fear of a government plot to produce ungodly children via the school system.>>

John, again for the second time click on the links that SUPPORT the arguments. For example, in one article I wrote, "Kerby Anderson of Probe Ministries, commenting on the book "When Nations Die," describes a three-fold pattern of decay seen historically as nations collapse: social decay, cultural decay and moral decay. Tragically, America is on the verge of hitting the trifecta. Mr. Anderson elaborates". You should have noticed that the word "commenting" is hot-linked and if you would click on it— Voila! You would find the "research" you were looking for because it would take you to another web page: http://www.leaderu.com/common/nationsdie.html

I don't make these things up John. The evidence is linked all through out my articles just click, read and learn. Again John for example in another article I wrote, "Globally, American public educated kids score near the bottom of the barrel in math and science; " All hot linked and if you were to actually click on the link you would find a Washington Post article that again "backs up" the point with facts. You would have been taken to this link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/04/AR2007120400730.html

It is all there you just need to click on the links, read, and learn.

YOU WROTE:
<<There was no evidence at all provided by your tongue-in-cheek article.>>

The articles once you read them, do have plenty of "evidence" linked within them.

YOU WROTE:
<<Would you care to define what you believe a socialist is?>>

I don't have to define it because the dictionary does just fine in this case. Socialism-The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved; a theory of government based upon the ownership and control of capital, land, and means of production by the community as a whole.

Here is are 2 articles (not written by me) that very clearly show that Socialism at it's core is evil and merely "legalized theft" : http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81349
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1252930/posts

One writer put it well, " An argument against legalized theft should not be construed as an argument against helping one's fellow man in need. Charity is a noble instinct; theft, legal or illegal, is despicable. Or, put another way: Reaching into one's own pocket to assist his fellow man is noble and worthy of praise. Reaching into another person's pocket to assist one's fellow man is despicable and worthy of condemnation."

On a side note, I don't know if you were aware the the term Nazi stands for "National Socialist German Workers' Party" and that tyrants like Vladimir Lenin wrote, "The goal of socialism is communism."

Socialism has many, many problems with it, the least of them that some of the 20th Century's most corrupt leaders adhered to it's teachings. Have you forgotten? Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)

YOU WROTE:
<<What the hell is a socialistic/secular-humanistic worldview? >>

Wow John. I am shocked that you would not know the answer to this question?!? You whole-heartedly embrace secular-humanism as your religion so it could be that you are so close to it that you can't see it. After all does a fish know its wet?

Definition of Secular Humanism can be found at: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-r002.html

Taken from above link, <<Secular Humanism is a worldview. That is, it is a set of beliefs through which one interprets all of reality—something like a pair of glasses. Second, Secular Humanism is a religious worldview. Do not let the word “secular” mislead you. The Humanists themselves would agree that they adhere to a religious worldview. According to the Humanist Manifestos I & II: Humanism is "a philosophical, religious, and moral point of view...Atheism leads most Secular Humanists to adopt ethical relativism - the belief that no absolute moral code exists, and therefore man must adjust his ethical standards in each situation according to his own judgment. If God does not exist, then He cannot establish an absolute moral code. Humanist Max Hocutt says that human beings "may, and do, make up their own rules... Morality is not discovered; it is made. Secular Humanism, then, can be defined as a religious worldview based on atheism, naturalism, evolution, and ethical relativism.">>

And sadly your false religion of secular-humanism is the only teaching allowed in government schools:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-g002.html

Jeepers, I wonder if there is any connection to why more and more kids are thinking like secular-humanists these days?

YOU WROTE:
<<Let me explain something to you David. It is the parents, yes the parents, responsibility, not the schools, to set an example on how children should conduct their lives.>>

Wow, you are correct BUT the facts show that parents have very little real interaction with their children day in and day out. Let's look at the facts plainly. A child spends about 1,100 hours a year in school and if all the studies are correct just a couple hours a year in meaningful conversation with their parents. Who is making a bigger impression on the children today? The school or the parents? Study after study show the secular-humanistic government schools are making the lasting impression. BIG PROBLEM!

YOU WROTE:
<<If so many American children are failing, then look to the parents. That’s where the responsibility lies. You cannot, let me repeat, cannot leave it all to the schools. If you do you are failing your children. >>

Voila! That is what many parents are realizing and one of the main reasons why homeschooling is growing. The public schools don't work and cannot be fixed— period. If you want read an excellent book that is not coming from a Christian worldview (since you seemed to have strong bias towards atheism) I would recommend John Taylor Gatto's book, The Underground History of American Education:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/bookstore/index.htm

You will be quite enlighten as to what the facts are behind the modern education movement. You will be surprised by the documented research of Mr. Gatto.

YOU WROTE:
<<If you want a religious education for your children then do what millions of likeminded parents do around the world, set up a faith school.>>

Ummm, that is what we are doing in our homeschools. Don't worry John our kids are learning how to read, write, do arithmetic, history, etc. In fact study after study show that homeschooled children are excelling academically and socially. I have plenty of proof to show you, so just email me at my above address and I can send you more. Here is one link for example: http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/

Taken from the report: "Home school students are able to progress through instructional material at the student's rate. Thus, it is easy for home school students to be enrolled one or more grades above their public and private school-age peers"

YOU WROTE:
<<This will come as a great shock to you but you need to know it. You do NOT need to believe in God, or hold any other belief in the supernatural, to be a good citizen, to loved thy neighbour, to do all the good things that Christ wished upon his disciples>>

How does an atheist define good? I mean what is good to you? By what standard do you measure good? Is it good according to John Green's mind? Or is it based on the moral consensus of your like-minded friends? Or do you just follow what the public moral consensus is that day? I crack up when I talk to atheists and they use words like "good" and "love". I find that atheists love to borrow "lumber" from the Christian's worldview in order to manufacture their own worldview where "right and wrong" is based on their own subjective opinion.

After all, a real atheist does not believe in God and cannot account for anything being inherently good or evil in a random, purposeless universe. Of course, atheists can live "moral" lives but they are not consistent in their thinking. I mean think about it for second. You as an atheist believe in evolution and therefore also believe that you and I are merely evolved "pond scum". Meaning that before there were apes, birds, reptiles, amoebas there was this "stuff" some call it "primordial goo" that was in a real sense our ancestor. I like how one book title put it, "From Goo to You by Way of the Zoo ". So according to the atheist what is man but evolved "goo". How does one derive good, love, morals from "goo"? You can't so you need to borrow it from somewhere. Hey, how about Christianity?

Look I don't mean to sound condescending but please try to see it from my perspective. Here you are an atheist who believes that all of our reality is an accident (no Design), hence we are accidents (goo, zoo, you), our brains are accidents (makes sense since we ourselves are accidents), and even our thoughts are accidents (accidental brains would have accidental thoughts). Basically John, you are an accident, that is trying to find some purpose within a bigger accident. It is irrationality that is beyond words. Reminds of the old expression of a blind guy searching in a dark room for a black cat that isn't even there. Good Luck.

If one wants to hold a viable and logical worldview then one needs to have at his or her foundation— God. He is the ultimate Moral Law Giver. He revealed to us what is right and wrong, not John Green, or me, or the government.

Probably why the Deist and 18th century philosopher Voltaire wrote, "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." He like Immanuel Kant understood the foundational importance of God, even though they might not have liked the idea of a God after all. It is the atheist that is truly inconsistent in His thinking without a foundation.

YOU WROTE:
<<Let’s look at all those religious communities in the USA, sharing your beliefs and “worldviews” (whatever that means), who regularly abuse their children, including sexual abuse. >>

First off how can you, as an atheist, call anything right or wrong in the universe where you believe there is no meaning, no purpose and we are all mere the result of random chance and time?? I addressed that above.

Secondly, no one has ever said that everyone who have professed to be Christian are in fact Christian. The Bible has a lot to say to these hypocrites who "have a form or appearance of godliness" but are in fact frauds. I don't hold you accountable for over the 100 million slaughtered under the atheists Stalin and Lenin's regimes. I am sure you would say that they do not speak for all atheists BUT like it or not they were consistent in their thinking. Stalin was quoted as saying, "“Death solves all problems - no man, no problem.” and “A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.” and Lenin said, “There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience. A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel.”, and “Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism”.


YOU WROTE:
<<I have a good understanding of Jesus Christ and his teachings. If everyone followed His code of behaviour the world would be a better place than it is now.>>

I would have to whole heartedly disagree with you. I have spoken to numerous people on the topic of Jesus Christ and you appear to be one of the persons that knows the least about Him and what He taught.
What were they teaching you in that Sunday School anyways, definitely not the teachings of Christ.

YOU WROTE:
<<But what you fail to realise, David, is that He does not have a monopoly on this philosophy. What he espoused had been said by many before him and many after him. Much of what He preached is in tune with the way most atheists wish to lead their lives. He is in agreement with much that I believe in. >>

You really need to re-read the Bible John. I mean if you do not want to do all of the due diligence then just read the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). This Jesus that you speak of said the following:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (Matthew 3:7)

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7)

23 And when he got into the boat, his disciples followed him. 24 And behold, there arose a great storm on the sea, so that the boat was being swamped by the waves; but he was asleep. 25 And they went and woke him, saying, “Save us, Lord; we are perishing.” 26 And he said to them, “Why are you afraid, O you of little faith?” Then he rose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm. 27 And the men marveled, saying, “What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?” (Matthew 8)

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? (Matt 23:33)

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” (John 3:3-21)

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” (John 14:1-8)

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” 37 Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” 38 Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” (John 18)


YOU WROTE:
<<I am an atheist David because I do not believe in God, heaven, creationism, etc, etc but I am still a good man.>>

You are making the critical error that many make in judging yourself, by yourself, among yourself. Almost anybody can find someone who is worse off than they are and say to themselves, "Hey, I am pretty good after all." Big mistake, especially when the standard set is not set by you and me but God.(Romans 3:23)

YOU WROTE:
<<As for the bible being “reliable”, if you believe the story of the creation as given in Genesis and the many fables such as Noah and his ark, then you will believe anything. David, it is absolute codswallop.>>

It appears that you seem to at least show a little respect towards Jesus and His teachings because you wrote, "If everyone followed His code of behaviour the world would be a better place than it is now." Even Jesus Himself referred to a historical Noah (Matthew 24:37-38) and a historical Jonah (Luke 11:30-32) too.

Jesus also referred to himself as God (Ego Eimi) (John 8:58), accepted worship as God (Matthew 2:11 & 14:32-33), and the Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8) meaning that the Sabbath was His idea not ours. Where do we find God giving us the Sabbath? In Genesis when God created the world. While we are on the topic of Genesis that book explains why we still have a seven day week, why we still wear clothes and why all of us still die. Genesis is still very relevant today contrary to what you believe.


YOU WROTE:
<<Let me explain. As children develop they learn survival skills that help them to survive in the world. At a very early age they are very protective of their possessions and need to learn to share. They may be violent to other children who want access to their stuff. They learn at this early stage that some of their actions will result in a reprimand. It is quite natural and understandable that they will deny responsibility for their actions to avoid punishment>>

If this was a game show we would have heard a loud buzzer going off alarming everyone to how wrong your answer truly is. You are example does not work. Children are not trying to survive in the world? That is such nonsense that I wonder where you come up with this stuff. Children from rich families have everything they could possibly want but still exhibit their sinful natures by stealing, lying, cheating and hurting others. Why? They are not trying to survive? They do not protect their possessions? Their indulgent parents give their children all their child's heart desires which causes a whole different problem with the children— terribly self-centered spoiled children. Many doting parents never reprimand or punish their children and so only hasten the child's selfish nature to worsen. Your example falls flat on it's face and at least shows me that you have not spent much time thinking about such things.

YOU WROTE:
<<It is a fundamental responsibility of government to ensure free access for everyone to quality education, to provide suitable resources and to monitor performance.>>

There goes that buzzer again. Wow. I guess you would think that since you embrace socialism as a good thing. I think a good definition of what government role is: "...government's only responsibility is to protect the rights of the individual, by banning the initiation of force, thus making all relations between men peaceful, i.e., free from the threat of violence and fraud...To protect rights, government require essentially three things: an army -- to protect against foreign invaders, a police force (FBI) -- to protect against domestic criminals, and a court system -- to settle honest disputes that arise, and to punish criminals according to objectively predefined laws."

No where is it the government's role to educate the people...well, unless you are a socialist you would say everything is the government's role.


YOU WROTE:
<< If you are dissatisfied with your public schools you should do something about it>>

We are by telling people to get the heck out of them. Let them go the way of the 8 track cartridges and dictophones.


YOU WROTE:
<<If Jesus Christ was able to visit Washington tomorrow, having cut his hair, had a shave and put on a suit, he would be demanding universal healthcare for everyone, free-of-charge, a universal effective education system, a total ban on the carrying and use of guns, a demand that America stops consuming a quarter of the world’s finite resources, a demand that America pays its fair share of financial help to the third world.>>

John you have so much to learn about Jesus Christ. You are so far off on who He was that you really need to start at the beginning. Like I said at the beginning of my email, we have taken this as far as it will go in this blog. If you wish to discuss further please feel free to email me. I would be happy to talk to you about Jesus Christ, maybe I can clear up some of your blatant misconceptions about Him.

If you reject discussing Christ further via my other email address, I would ask you John to please think about all we discussed. There is still time to change. Jesus' invitation is still good.

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”(John 6)


John, I appreciated our discussion and hope your son receives a good education.

Peace,

David

~ Permanent Link

Jul. 9, 2009 - The heart and sinful children

Posted by John Green

David,

I too cannot spend anymore time on this exchange, especially as the postings are getting longer each time and the Ashes Series against Australia has begun.

I will be as brief as possible.

You describe a frightening decline in American society. But there must be hope of a halt to this decline with the election of a new president who seems to want to undo the damage of the Republican years. Let’s hope he comes up with some meaningful commitments at the G8 meeting this week.

If you remember, way back, my original questions concerned your statements regarding “the need to train-up wicked children”. You brought God and the bible into the discussion, probably because they appear to dominate your daily life.

If you read my posts carefully you will see that I admit to knowing little about the American school system although I have got the impression from you and other posters to this website that the system is hopeless. I accept that. I don’t know why you have spent so much time in your postings trying to convince me of this situation. I have offered you some examples from the UK that might help you to improve the system and can add to that if you really need it, although, for the reasons I gave in my last post, I think you are stuck on this one. My main concern was your belief in the existence of a secret government plot to undermine the school system and to corrupt US children. This is called paranoia and is not good for your health David and you should think it through.

David, I was appalled to read that your children spend “just a couple hours a year in meaningful conversation with you.” I spend four hours every school day with my eleven-year-old son, during which we discuss everything under the sun as we play in the garden, prepare the evening meal, tackle homework together, review the day and plan tomorrow. The weekends are spent on outdoor activities together and visiting friends and relatives. This is what you should be doing EVERY DAY, David not once a year. No wonder you think you have “sinful kids”.

Your definition of “socialism” is bizarre but not surprising, given the tone of your postings. Your arrogance is clearly visible in much that you write, particularly your assumption that I am a socialist. If you want to know, I am a life-long supporter of the Conservative Party, the home of Margaret Thatcher (whom the Gods preserve) and Winston Churchill. I hold no brief for socialism but I needed to challenge your ignorance. Neither do I describe myself as a “secular-humanist”. If you wish to discuss issues with posters you really should pay attention to what they write. I have no religion David, least of all “secular-humanism”. I am an atheist, recognising that there is no God. Why am I an atheist? Is it that I hate religious people or that I worship the devil? No David. I am an atheist because there is absolutely no evidence to support a belief in a super-natural being. Accepting God, as you do, David, is simply an act of faith. Being a scientist, this infantile position is not available to me. I need proof. There is no proof of the existence of God. I do not believe in God, or the devil, ghosts, fairies at the bottom of the garden, the tooth-fairy, Father Christmas (although I pretend to for the sake of my grandchildren; this probably makes me a hypocrite in your eyes) or Batman and Robin. I regard a believe in God as the product of an immature, infantile mind. I am reassured to know that as education and science advance throughout the modern world, religion is on the retreat. This retreat is slower in the US, probably because of the dire nature of education in your country, but it will happen. As you mention in your posting, many American children raised in religious homes abandon their beliefs when they reach maturity and begin to think for themselves. Religion is strongest in third world countries, as you know.

Please do not be offended by what I write David. I am sure that you are a good man. Its just that you do not have an open, enquiring mind.

You wrote: “How does an atheist define good? I mean what is good to you? By what standard do you measure good? Is it good according to John Green's mind? Or is it based on the moral consensus of your like-minded friends? Or do you just follow what the public moral consensus is that day? I crack up when I talk to atheists and they use words like "good" and "love". I find that atheists love to borrow "lumber" from the Christian's worldview in order to manufacture their own worldview where "right and wrong" is based on their own subjective opinion.”

What appalling ignorance sandwiched in layers of arrogance. If you don’t know what a “good man” is then you display appalling ignorance. I am ready to accept that you, David, are a “good man” although you appear narrow-minded, prejudiced and arrogant. I don’t “crack up” when I talk to religious people, I am just astonished at their gullibility.

You really betray your ignorance with your comments about evolution and your assumptions about what I believe. Its laughable. You probably belong to the George Bush academy and believe that the universe was built in seven days about 6000 years ago and the dinosaurs are an invention of Hollywood. You probably believe that evolution teaches us that homo sapiens is descended from monkeys. Pathetic.

For your education, the universe formed about 4.6 billion years ago. Mammals, of which we are but one species, have been around for about 200 million years. A bit stupid of God to claim credit for doing this only 6000 years ago! For your further education, none of this was by chance. All events follow the laws of science which inherently govern all mass and energy. Nothing to do with God, the tooth-fairy or Santa Claus. Unless, of course, you read the bible. If you want to understand more than you clearly do about this subject then read Darwin’s book “On the origin of species”, one of the most important books ever written. Now would be an appropriate time, being the 150th anniversary of its publication.

Why do I know this? Because of centuries of scientific observation backed up by the irrefutable evidence of the fossil record and radio-metric dating. There is overwhelming evidence for what we all now know about the evolution of the universe. There is no evidence whatever for the existence of God. None whatever. This is as obvious as a mandrill’s bottom. Your belief in God, and the elaborate religion woven around this belief, is a simplistic act of faith. If you like, the lazy man’s, unthinking approach to understanding his origins. Why doesn’t this worry you?

You hit the button on the head, David, with your quote from Voltaire: “ If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him”. And invent him you have!!! Exactly my point. Thank you.

You wrote;
“First off how can you, as an atheist, call anything right or wrong in the universe where you believe there is no meaning, no purpose and we are all mere the result of random chance and time?? I addressed that above.”

Let me educate you once more, David. The purpose of life is clear and constant. It is two-fold; to survive and to procreate. That is the purpose of all life on earth; plants, insects, birds, bacteria and animals like you and me. It is built into our DNA and drives our deepest wants, needs and desires. Didn’t they teach you anything in school?

How did Stalin and Lenin and the Nazis get into the conversation? You’ve lost me there David.

David, I asked you not to quote from the bible and you have thrown all those quotes at me. I have read enough of the bible to know that it has no relevance for me whatsoever. Reading any of it again would be a waste of my valuable time. I spent many years of my childhood having this stuff thrown at me. I know enough about it to know that I don’t need it, I don’t want it and it is irrelevant to our discussion. The bible is tainted with numerous scientific, mathematical, and biological errors and contradictions. Anything you quote is therefore highly selective. Fewer theologians nowadays think of the bible as God’s word because this concept is incompatible with the many errors in it (not to mention Isaiah’s, Ezekiel’s and Jeremiah’s failed prophesies).

We wear clothes, David, not because of Genesis, but because we lost our fur millions of years ago as we evolved.

You have a very odd idea of child-development. I can recommend some reading for you if you wish to gain a better understanding of the subject. Let me know. Once again, there is no evidence to support the bizarre idea that children inherit “original sin”.

If you read the gospels more carefully than you have done you will recognise that Jesus clearly was a socialist as well as a racist (he called non-Jews “dogs”). By the way, although there is some evidence of the existence of a prophet known as Jesus of Nazareth, there is no evidence of his resurrection after death. There are many contradictions in the gospels, which were written between 40 and 100 years after the death of Christ. The naming of the authors (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) was not made until the second century and were guesses made by the early Church fathers. Paul’s recollection is that the disciples had an hallucinatory experience after the death of Christ. Most scholars recognise that the myth of the resurrection was derived from Mithraism which clearly had a potent influence on the development of nascent Christianity. The Mithraists had a special day dedicated to their god. It was the first day of the week, which they appropriately called Sun-day, the "day of our Lord". The concept of heaven and hell was also pinched from Mithraism (Mithra was the God of the upper and nether world and it is he who judged men's deeds.) The historical origin of the central events of Christianity did not begin with the actual resurrection of a Galilean Jew. It began when Jewish religious philosophy was grafted onto Greco-Roman paganism. If you had been born in another country David, given your propensity to believe in a super-natural being, you would now be a Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, animist or any other of many different theisms, depending on the society of the country of your birth. That would not matter as long as you believe that all religions share the same God. Food for thought eh?

I have enjoyed our discussion. It is not one I have had for some time as I meet fewer and fewer Christians these days. Maybe they have all gone to heaven.

Let me finish with some quotations (after all you have been sprinkling quotes throughout your postings):

“I don’t try to imagine a personal God; it suffices to stand in awe at the structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it.”
Albert Einstein

“Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”
Douglas Adams

“The priests of the different religious sects…dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight, and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subdivision of the duperies on which they live.”
Thomas Jefferson

“A professorship of theology should have no place in our institution.”
Thomas Jefferson

“The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson

“Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man, living in the sky, who watches everything that you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man in the sky has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ‘til the end of time…BUT HE LOVES YOU!”
George Carlin

“I believe it was God’s will to send a boy from here into the Reich, to let him grow up and to raise him to be the leader of the nation so that he could lead back his homeland into the Reich.”
Adolf Hitler, Vienna, 1938

“Now I am completely content. The fact that I left the Burgerbraukeller earlier than usual is corroboration of God’s intention to let me reach my goal”.
Adolph Hitler, Munich 1939, after surviving an assassination attempt.

“There is in every village a torch, the teacher; and an extinguisher, the clergyman.”
Victor Hugo

“Politics has slain its thousands, but religion has slain its tens of thousands”.
Sean O’Casey

“I do believe in God! I do believe in God! I do I do I do. I do believe in God! Therefore God exists.”
Any Christian

“God loves you. How could you be so heartless as not to believe in him? Therefore God exists.”
Any Christian

I have no desire to undermine your beliefs David, just to state my own, and I wish you and your family well.

Sincerely,

John Green.

~ Permanent Link

Jul. 16, 2009 - Home-education

Posted by John Green

David,

Further to our discussion regarding home-educating children within a religious environment, particularly when that environment is dominated by paranoid fears, here is a news story from today’s paper. This is why home-educated children need to be inspected and protected:

US evangelist 'married' under-age girls, court hears
A controversial American evangelist "married" under-age girls as young as eight before forcing them into sex, a court has heard.
By Tom Leonard in New York
Published: 8:27PM BST 15 Jul 2009
Tony Alamo, 74, who at one time turned his ministry into a multi-million dollar business, has denied taking young girls across state lines for sex at his trial in Texarkana, Arkansas.
On Wednesday, one of his former wives told the court that the preacher had so many partners that he scheduled how often he would have sex with each of them. The 30-year-old woman, who married Alamo when she was 15, said she began to have doubts about him when she was an adult after he graphically described sexually abusing an eight-year-old holding a stuffed animal. She told the court that Alamo said she should not question what "the Lord told me to do".

The woman, a third generation follower of a movement that some have dubbed a cult, said "Papa Tony" segregated children at his religious compound by gender to prevent what he called "hanky-panky". The children were not allowed to attend normal schools but were instead sent to classes approved by Alamo, who exercised a similarly rigid control of the adults in his flock, the court heard.

Alamo was jailed for four years in 1994 for tax evasion. The authorities raided his compound in south-western Arkansas in September last year. If convicted, he faces 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine on each count.

Alamo, who was born Bernie Hoffman of Jewish parents, set up the Alamo Christian Foundation with his late wife, Susan, in Hollywood in 1969. They built it into a very profitable organisation that included its own syndicated television show and even a line of "Tony Alamo" brand sequinned denim jackets. Alamo's teachings include the imminence of Armageddon and the collusion of the Pope and the US government in a Satanic conspiracy that was responsible for Pearl Harbor, the 9/11 attacks and the assassination of John F Kennedy.
Alamo claims the current trial is part of this Vatican-led conspiracy against him.
The trial continues.

~ Permanent Link

Jul. 25, 2009 - Home-education

Posted by John Green

David,

I am sure that you would like an update on the trial of the evangelical preacher I mentioned in an earlier post. Hopefully, he will now spent the rest of his sad life in prison. As a result of reading this, I hope you will support legislation designed to protect young children who are home-educated, particularly within a religious environment. These children need protection from paedophiles.

Preacher Tony Alamo convicted of 'marrying' girls for sex

Tony Alamo, a one-time street preacher who built a multimillion-dollar ministry was convicted on Friday of taking girls as young as 9 across state lines for sex.

Published: 10:00PM BST 24 Jul 2009

Alamo stood silently as the verdict was read, a contrast to his occasional mutterings during testimony. His five victims sat looking forward in the gallery. One, a woman he "married" at age 8, wiped away a tear.

"I'm just another one of the prophets that went to jail for the Gospel," Alamo called to reporters afterward as he was escorted to a waiting U.S. marshal's vehicle.

Shouts of "Bye, bye, Bernie" – Alamo was born Bernie Lazar Hoffman – came from a crowd gathered on the Arkansas side of the courthouse, which straddles the Texas-Arkansas border.
Jurors were convinced Alamo had had sex with the girls when they were underage, but deliberated for more than a day to ensure that they considered everything, jury foreman Frank Oller of Texarkana said.

"That was the evidence. That was proven," Mr Oller said. "We came up with a full decision that we are quite satisfied with."

Don Ervin, Alamo's defence lawyer, said the evidence against the 74-year-old preacher was insufficient and that the preacher would appeal. He also said Alamo's criminal history – he served four years in prison on tax charges in the 1990s – "will hurt him" at sentencing in six to eight weeks.

"We believe he will face the rest of his natural life in prison," said Assistant US Attorney Kyra Jenner. The penalties on the 10 charges total 175 years in prison, she said, and violations of the century-old Mann Act also carry fines of up to $250,000 each.

The five women, now age 17 to 33, told jurors that Alamo "married" them in private ceremonies while they were minors, sometimes giving them wedding rings. Each detailed trips beyond Arkansas' borders for Alamo's sexual gratification.

~ Permanent Link

Oct. 31, 2009 - Home-educating Christians at it again

Posted by John Green

Hallo David,

It is several months since our correspondence which followed my challenge to your bizarre "train-em-up" philosophy. I was bored tonight so I thought I'd visit your website and send you details of more home-educating Christians and their abuse of little girls. I am sure that, as a result of my postings, you no longer oppose compulsary vetting of home-schooling in your country.

Here is the news:

Polygamy challenged as renegade Mormon group's trial grips Texan town
Court case sheds light on Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, where it is alleged that bigamy and sexual abuse of girls, some as young as 12, are widespread.
By Philip Sherwell in Eldorado, Texas
Published: 7:00PM GMT 31 Oct 2009
The demure women in prairie dresses and clean-cut men in plaid shirts milling around the square of the small Texan town of Eldorado looked like a throwback to a bygone era. On their nearby gated compound, they tend their orchards and their dairy, dedicating their lives to God and raising their children to eschew many of the trappings of modern life. But although it may sound like a simple innocent existence, a very different interpretation emerged last week of life among the renegade Mormons of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
It was laid out in the makeshift courtroom set up in Eldorado's draughty community hall, where, over coming weeks, the key tenet that marks the sect out from mainstream Mormons - polygamy - will come under challenge. Prosecutors claim that the church's controversial practice of "spiritually uniting" young women with men often several decades older is a cover for rampant sexual abuse, as well as bigamy. It is Little House on the Prairie meets Big Love, the HBO television series about a family of fundamentalist Mormon polygamists - but with child sexual assault thrown in, if the critics are correct. Not surprisingly, the case has gripped America and electrified the tiny town of Eldorado, which boasts just 1,900 people, two eateries and one traffic light.
The legal showdown began last week, when a leading pillar of the church pleaded not guilty to charges of sexual assault against a 16-year-old girl, who was allegedly assigned as one of his nine wives. Raymond Jessop, 38, is one of 12 men from the sect who are facing sex and bigamy charges arising from a raid last year on the church's nearby Yearning for Zion ranch.
"We will ask you to conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Raymond Merrill Jessop is guilty of sexual assault on a woman less than half his age," deputy attorney General Eric Nichols told the jury of eight men and four women in a brief opening statement.
Jurors were shown a picture of a toddler in a pink prairie dress, clinging to the skirt of a teenage woman who prosecutors say is the girl with whom Mr Jessop allegedly had sex in 2004. Prosecution DNA evidence is be presented to show that the toddler was the product of that liaison. The picture was recovered from the ranch, a 1,700-acre site dominated by a gleaming limestone-clad temple that towers above the scrub of juniper bushes and mesquite trees off County Road 300 on the edge of town. Also dotted around the site are several huge three-storey timber chalet-style homes that house families of dozens of children and women as well as a diary, grain silos and warehouses. Led by their "prophet" Warren Jeffs, who has since been jailed on sex charges, many of the sect's senior figures moved here in 2004 from their long-standing communities 1,100 miles away on the Utah-Arizona borders.
The intention was to get away from prying eyes. But the ranch and its 700 residents were thrust into national prominence in April 2008 when police and child protection officials raided the site and removed 439 girls and boys. Even as the softly-spoken mothers, their hair coiffed up from their foreheads as a tribute to God, insisted that the authorities were breaking up happy normal families, child welfare services were reporting a large number of pregnancies among "clearly underage" teenage girls. They also noticed an unusual rate of broken bones among young children, The Sunday Telegraph was told.
The children were all subsequently returned to the church, to the delight of its leaders and horror of its critics. But based on evidence seized from the ranch, the prosecutions are being pursued.
At Eldorado's Jo Jo's café, where the words of Psalm 46:1 ("God is our refuge and strength - an ever present-help in trouble") are written on the chalkboard above the daily special, the trial dominates conversation that would normally focus on the hunting season for hogs, turkeys and quail.
"We're not really much into polygamy in these parts," said Randy Mankin, publisher of the Eldorado Success newspaper, which broke the unsettling news in early 2004 that the church was setting up there. And the apocalyptic-sounding name of the ranch revived memories of the 1993 siege in Waco, Texas, of the Branch Davidian cult, led by another "prophet", David Koresh, that ended in the deaths of 54 adults and 21 children.
"People were pretty unnerved that those folks were on the edge of town," said Mr Mankin. "But we hardly ever saw them. The men came in from time to time, but there was only ever the occasional sighting of one of the women at a supermarket. And we never saw the kids. We couldn't believe it when they found 439 children living there."
The first witness for the case set the colourful tenor for this highly unusual trial. Texas Ranger Nick Hanna, the lead officer for the ranch raid, first took off his Stetson hat and then adjusted the cowboy belt holding his pistol as he took the stand. The church, meanwhile, has deployed wealth accrued from various business interests to finance a top-notch defence team, including civil liberties' veterans. Their 10,000 followers, who are spread across the Midwest, broke away early last century after the mainstream Mormon church renounced polygamy. They are committed to the doctrine of "plural marriage", which requires a man to take multiple wives to receive the highest form of salvation. The church also practices "placement marriage" - with the church leader, who has the status of prophet, assigning females to husbands. Traditionally, this has involved marrying off girls as young as 12, although the church stated last year that it would end the practice of child brides. Church spokesman Willie Jessop, a burly figure with a ready smile, deploys a mix of rhetorical questions and evasive answers to fend off questions about the group.
"If you're going to prosecute this sort of crime, should there not be a victim?" he asked, citing the fact that the children removed last year denied they were subject to abuse. "There was no abuse so what we have here are selective political prosecutions, pure and simple. They may not like us, they may think we dress funny, but is that a crime?"
Asked about the practice of plural wives, he replied: "Well, that's a complicated issue and very difficult to explain to someone who is not of the faith. There are probably many customs in other religions that would seem bizarre to me, but it's not for me to judge them."
That is greeted with derision by Flora Jessop, a cousin of Raymond and Willie who fled the church at 16 when she was made a child bride. She has since helped dozens of others flee the movement, which she says treats its girls as concubines and boys as cheap labour.
"The egregiousness of the abuse that was uncovered in that raid on the ranch is almost impossible to listen to," she said. "I just hope that people will finally understand that polygamy is not a religious practice. It is the enslavement of women and children."

~ Permanent Link

Nov. 1, 2009 - No comparison

Posted by David d

Long time no talk, John. Hope all is well with you and yours.

I would respectfully ask you to consider the incredibly fragile glass house you live in before you start throwing stones at others.


Looks like you folks have some real issues to deal with over there in the Outback.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/third-knox-teacher-charged-with-sex-abuse-20090224-8g7f.html

"A third teacher was charged today with four counts relating to sexual abuse of students at Sydney's elite Knox Grammar School... [teacher] was arrested by police earlier today over the alleged sexual assault of three Knox students between 1979 and 1990."



http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25404227-2702,00.html
"A FIFTH former teacher from Sydney's prestigious Knox Grammar School has been arrested over child sex allegations dating back 30 years.The 66-year-old man was arrested today at Port Macquarie, on NSW's mid-north coast, in relation to the alleged indecent assault of a former student.

“The offences are alleged to have taken place while he was a teacher at the school in 1976 and 1977,” police said in a statement."




http://blog.taragana.com/n/australian-lecturer-sought-sex-cash-to-hike-marks-report-139434/

"MELBOURNE - A law lecturer at Melbourne’s Victoria University is alleged to have solicited and received “bribes in the form of sexual favours and money from some female Asian international students” to improve their marks, a media report said Friday....His death and the bribery allegations have stunned colleagues at the varsity, where he had taught for several years.
“I was shocked and bewildered,” a former colleague told The Australian. “He was a great colleague.”
It is believed the university uncovered the allegations in December and immediately referred them to police. The man was immediately stood down but staff were told he had resigned. They were later told he had died.
It is understood the Asian students themselves were never considered suspects in the investigation, instead being treated as victims, the report said.
The university has refused to comment.
“The university has processes in place that ensure that any allegations that are made, that could constitute criminal conduct, are referred to the police,” the university’s senior deputy vice-chancellor, John McCallum, was quoted as saying in a statement.
Australia’s education sector is bracing itself for a possible downturn in international student demand following a series of attacks on Indian students over the past three months.
The sector has also been rocked with reports of students being exploited and a migration and education scam that was unearthed. Nearly 100,000 Indian students are enrolled in various courses in Australia."



http://www.minniscomms.com.au/educationtoday/articles.php?articleid=46

"The number of children who are sexually abused is not fully known. There are many reasons for this...[the] remaining offenders are almost always people known to the child such as other relatives or trusted caretakers such as priests, AID WORKERS and TEACHERS.


http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/schoolboy-counselled-over-teacher-sex-abuse-claim/2005/09/14/1126377358247.html

"A 16-year-old Melbourne schoolboy is receiving counselling after alleged sexual abuse by a female substitute teacher, his principal says.
The boy, who was 15 at the time of an alleged sexual relationship with the teacher, attends Roxburgh College in Roxburgh Park in Melbourne's north-west."


Looks like Australia has some big problems in the their schools (public and private) with teacher abuse.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/02/1041196739903.html

"Complaints against government school staff accounted for the bulk of allegations to the Ombudsman, comprising 39 per cent (685 reports) of the 1758 child abuse reports..."

And yes we have our issues over here too: (at least 404 reported cases in 10 months this year alone)
http://schoolteachernews.com/scandal.html


Sorry John, after a cursory look at the facts, that dog won't hunt. There is no comparison between a VERY FEW bad apples you find in the homeschool community and the vast amount of traditional education sexual abuse cases. If you can't see it then I am not sure what other proof would convince you otherwise. The sad part is that just like over here most of the sexual abuse is not reported and/or covered up. Poor kids.

BTW- Looks like it may be time for you to replace a lot of the glass in your house now. ; )


Peace,

-D

~ Permanent Link

Nov. 1, 2009 - ...on a side note.

Posted by David d

John,

I learned from our previous email discussions that, with all due respect, you still have much to learn about the Christian faith.
You put in the subject of your last post, "Home-educating Christians at it again", and then turn around and cite a group (Mormon) that is not Christian in virtually any aspect. They worship a different god and are actually considered a cult. If you wish to enlighten yourself a little further on this topic, please check out this site:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Mormons.html

Peace,

-D

~ Permanent Link

Nov. 1, 2009 - PS

Posted by David d

John,

I realized two things that when I posted back in July I wrote that this would be my last post here, looks I got pulled back in. Whoops.

Secondly, I was re-reading some of your past posts (7-9-09 "The heart and sinful children") and again, with all due respect John, if you claim to have the open mind that you say you have then please read outside of your secular comfort zone and discover that you have been bamboozled.

Most of your views are just a mere regurgitation of some very poor and biased "scholars". What views do I mean?

You wrote: "... Jesus clearly was a socialist as well as a racist (he called non-Jews “dogs”). By the way, although there is some evidence of the existence of a prophet known as Jesus of Nazareth, there is no evidence of his resurrection after death. There are many contradictions in the gospels, which were written between 40 and 100 years after the death of Christ. The naming of the authors (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) was not made until the second century and were guesses made by the early Church fathers. Paul’s recollection is that the disciples had an hallucinatory experience after the death of Christ. Most scholars recognise that the myth of the resurrection was derived from Mithraism which clearly had a potent influence on the development of nascent Christianity. The Mithraists had a special day dedicated to their god. It was the first day of the week, which they appropriately called Sun-day, the "day of our Lord". The concept of heaven and hell was also pinched from Mithraism (Mithra was the God of the upper and nether world and it is he who judged men's deeds.) The historical origin of the central events of Christianity did not begin with the actual resurrection of a Galilean Jew. It began when Jewish religious philosophy was grafted onto Greco-Roman paganism..."

Wow and double wow!

Your views on Jesus Christ and Christianity are like a textbook response from someone who has not the faintest idea of the real facts. IF (that is a pretty big IF) you really want to learn the facts I would suggest you get yourself the recently released book "Manifested in the Flesh" and discover how easily your weak points mentioned above are dismantled by the evidence.

Again if you want to really learn the facts Mr. McDurmon does an excellent job of laying out all of the research.

http://www.amazon.com/Manifested-Flesh-Historical-Evidence-Skeptics/dp/0915815613

Cheaper even here:
http://www.americanvision.com/manifestedinthefleshe-bookdownload.aspx

John, my heart is that you would look at the facts and then draw your conclusion from there. It appears that you had some negative experiences as a child with some folks who considered themselves Christians, then were indoctrinated in school by godless Darwinism (which actually takes more faith to believe in than Creationism), and finally, as is so typical with atheists, secular-humanists and skeptics, ONLY would read and concur with "scholars" who had "evidence" that lined up with their anti-god world-view. You see it is one thing to see the plain facts, disagree with them and then suppress the Truth (Romans 1:18-23) but it is another thing to read the wrong facts, accept them, and then go around defending dead arguments while looking down your nose at others who see things quite differently. Make sense?

I am seeing that here is still a lot for you to learn about Jesus Christ and Christianity. My advice (although you were not asking for it) is to read, of course the Bible but also some of of the more recent books that will probably help you get past some of your wrong thinking in regards to God, Christ and Christians.

You may find the link below a good place to start.

http://www.americanvision.com/godis.aspx

Lastly you wrote that you are not "secular-humanist" but an atheist instead. John they are virtually one in the same. Where does your view on reality differ from a secular-humanist's?
Please see: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-r002.html

Peace,

-D

PS- Again since we are both real busy people so feel free to get back to me after you have read some of the above books (evidence) and give me your feedback, in the meantime I will be not be able to respond for a couple weeks. My plate is full and Thanksgiving is around the corner (no pun intended).


For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (2 Peter 1:16)

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