Deb on the run
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Oct. 23, 2006

sitting in church thinkin' about sin.

Yes, my mind was wandering a bit during Father's sermon.  But, the sermon was on baptism and well, one thing leads to another.  My thoughts connected with a conversation this past weekend about sin and redemption and the Orthodox vs Western understanding of this.  I'm going to throw this one out, mainly because I have not read enough about it to even begin to sound authoritative.

Some scoff at the Orthodox understanding of the purpose of Christ's death (free us from death), saying we de-emphasize Christ's atonement for our sins.  There is certainly scripture (and I'm told many Patristic Fathers) to back both claims. 

But, what I was thinking is that... prior to Christ's Incarnation there already was a way to obtain forgiveness of sins.  Its not like God wasn't already in the business of forgiving his people - look at David.  Christ did bring us forgiveness of our sins, on a more personal,  timely, and everlasting manner.  We no longer have to kill something to be forgiven, we only need ask with a contrite heart.  Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it), sinning and needing forgiveness is somewhat of a revolving door.  Everyone does it - again, and again, and again.  However, there was NO WAY for anyone to get away from death.  And once you die, your dead - they're no going, "oops, sorry, I didn't mean to do that.  Give me another chance?"   Once its done, its done, just ask the rich man: Luke 16:19-31  - and that was in the lectionary for this Sunday.

So my thinking is, yes of course, Christ came to forgive us our sins,  He came to take away the need for a scapegoat.   But what we needed much more was salvation from the dark coldness of death. We needed the Passover Lamb.

Make sense? Anyone care to expound, disagree, kick me in the pants??

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Comments

Oct. 23, 2006 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous
Deb, it's a situation of "both/and." Christ came to set us free from the bondage of sin. He also came to trample down death. It's another paradox of scripture.

Philippa
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Oct. 23, 2006 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Dixie
Sounds brilliant to me! It seems the problem in the West regarding atonement is emphasis/predominance on the juridical model. While it is clear that the fathers (and Scripture!) speak of atonement in a number of ways, including juridically, keeping the primary focus on Christ willingly...sacrificially...entering death to change it forever for us...to totally destroy it...well, it helps keep everything else in proper perspective and understanding. I have to say everything makes much more sense to me now. Before I learned this Orthodox perspective God to me was like the Landlord in Lewis' Puritania. Called "good and loving" but just waiting to punish us--and if not us directly then His Son. It isn't hard for me to see how the problems of Rome materialized with its unbalanced focus on the atonement as satisfying a debt owed. How does one pay off a debt? Merit points!

But...I am not a theologian. I am just one incredibly grateful Orthodox Christian with a long road ahead of me. (But still...I am so happy to be on that road!)
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Oct. 24, 2006 - Untitled Comment

Posted by debdillon
Philippa, YES that is what I was trying to get at. Its not an either/or but a both/and. However, I think possibly why O seem to empahsize trampling down death is because that was the SHOCKING thing that God Incarnate did for us. Not to say that forgiving our sins isn't a huge relief for us.

It isn't hard for me to see how the problems of Rome materialized with its unbalanced focus on the atonement as satisfying a debt owed. How does one pay off a debt? Merit points! Yes Dixie, and then the Protestants took the point system away but kept the angry God. I too much prefer the "lover of mankind" in Orthodoxy.

Gotta run, late getting daughter to school. Wish I had more time to kabbitz.

Deb
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Oct. 24, 2006 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous
I think you are spot on.

- Mimi
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Oct. 24, 2006 - Good Posting

Posted by Novemebr In My Soul
I agree wholeheartedly. One of the most depressing things about attending the Baptist church was the constant emphasis on our sin nature and that Christ "paid it all" as an atonement for our sins. And not just our own sins, but we would be held accountable for the sins/salvation of others if we didn't witness to them and try to "win" their souls. Never once did I hear the message that Christ set us free from the shackles of death.

You expressed one of my nagging concerns very succintly. Keep up the good work.
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Random thoughts about homeschooling and life with 6 kids.





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