Forgotten Heroes - What music is appropriate?

Forgotten Heroes

May. 22, 2009

What music is appropriate?

Posted in Turumbar's Thing

Ok, this is probably the fastest I've ever posted a second post. Wow!

Anyway, this post is meant to spark discussion and will probably be up for about a week. I got something fun ready for after that.

Ok, let's begin.

Haha! I had to stick my face in first.

Ok, So here's the topic and below are 6 different views(actually 5 and other). Select the one you believe and defend it. I want a massive debate here!

Topic: What music is appropriate
1. No modern, pop, rock, rap, etc...
2. Only Christian music
3. Only bands that are completely clean
4. Only songs that are completely clean
5. It doesn't matter
6. Other

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Comments

May. 22, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by The Black Pricne

Idealy, we should listen to only clean songs from mostly clean bands.

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May. 22, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Turumbar

Ok, BP, what does mostly clean songs and mostly clean bands mean. That is very vague.

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May. 22, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Joshuahammond

Comment :)

Phil 4:8 "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

:)D here is my answer :)D

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May. 22, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by megjo

I am no saint on the matter but I think it should be clean but i like rock an d punk...clean of course so yeah...music and worship are to different things in my opion

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May. 22, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Turumbar

Wow! You guys really aren't doing what was intended! I should have been more specific in my directions! Choose which number you agree with and give solid reasons WHY!!! If you have no reasons why do you believe what you believe?

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May. 22, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

I didn't read your post but here's a coment to pacify you...
*coment*
...

Happy now.

Lady Claire

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May. 22, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Turumbar

not happy :(

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May. 22, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

I don't agree with any of your options.
My opinion was ruled out before #1

Lady Claire

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May. 22, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Joshuahammond

I guess... because I've heard secular songs that where closer to the truth than some "so called" christian songs.... it's that a song or music encourages what this verse talks about...that makes it a song worth listening to.

Phil 4:8
"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

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May. 22, 2009 - #6: Other

Posted by Anonymous

I would have to go with number 6: Other.

Mostly because I don't listen to strictly Christian music. I do listen to some clean secular music. Christian Rock, Christian Pop...etc...

I believe as long as the music is not dishonoring to God or unwholesome, it's fine.

-Ben B.

P.S. I don't necessarily say "No Rock" or "No Rap" if I like it, it's not dishonoring to God, or there's isn't some other subconscious message that's being communicating that isn't wholesome. It's fine.

P.P.S Sorry about the repetitiveness.

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May. 22, 2009 - Only Christian music

Posted by AlexB.

I only listen to Christian music. But if other music dos not dishonor God it is OK. But I usually don't listen to it to find out ha ha.

God bless you
Your fellow Ambassador of Chris Alex B.

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May. 22, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

I take option #6
I feel that there are plenty of good artists and many good songs that are not necessarily Christian. I love a lot of songs which were ruled out by you first option. I have never been a fan of rap *mutters* but there are plenty of rock songs which express a view (while not exactly Christian) which I agree most readily with.
Actually this is an idea which has sparked much debate amongst my family and me. For instance, there is a particular song by Demi Lovato called ‘La La Land’. This song is without a doubt very edgy and harsh, and is designed to spark rebellion in the listener. However, the rebellion is not directed toward authority per se, but towards Hollywood Rules. I am most happy to rebel against Hollywood’s status quo. I do not agree with their morals, standards, or beliefs in general.
My point is, there are plenty of rock, pop, and ‘other than worship’ styles which I find perfectly fine. I am at my own discretion when it comes to music. I can’t rule out styles, and say I find them inappropriate, only songs and artists. There are too many exceptions.

Lady Claire

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May. 22, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Wow, Alex, you have more than 10 coments in one night. You should post again and go into writing.
*laughs*

See you Sunday (with lots to talk about) ;D

Lady Claire

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May. 22, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Megjo

I pick 3-4...pop and rock are now for the rebeliousness but that has sort of change like groups like hawk nelson and run kid run...they are uplifting and postive. The bible says whatever is pure and lovely think on. And if the group isn't clean the music probably isn't.
I think worship should be seperate from just listing to music because it should be mean't for the lord and you should be foucused on it.
Sorry it isn't long enough alex
Becca

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

I guess its hard to watch a video..when its not there..o well. How do you get youtube videos on your blog? I don't know how
Becca

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

You know, Becca, you made an interesting point. I didn't really think about it when I made my coment, but you're right. I think worshiping and praising God should NOT be entertainment and for fun. It should be serious and consciously done with the intentions of honoring God.
If I'm in a time of confusion, I want to pull out a hymn, but if I'm just bouncing around with friends I think it might even be dishonoring to God to just have His music sort of "playing in the back ground'. It just seems... disrespectful and insinsere.

Lady Claire

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Turumbar

Ok, I'm going to go down and TRY to summarize all these comments.

BP: is basically supporting option 4, that the song being clean is all that's important. He didn't clarify reasons or points very well, so that's all I can say. ;)

Josh: Also seems to be supporting option 4. He has the best support possibel: the Bible :D. My question for Josh is this: Are the secular bands you are talking about mostly clean bands or does that not matter as long as the particular song is clean?

Ben B: Another #4. Am I beginning to see a pattern? Anything that is clean and has no harmful message.

Alex B. 4 bordering on 3.

Lady Claire: She says 6 but as far as I can see she's defending 4: As long as nothing is wrong with the particular song it's ok. Only thing that might qualify this as a 6 is if edgy and harsh= not clean. Does it, LC? In that case it's only the purpose of the song that has to be good and not the song itself.

Becca: Says 3-4, but sounds like pure 4 to me: as long as the band's uplifting and postive it's fine. :) Also worship separate from just listening music(I agree but that's a bit off topic).

It seems so far the consensus is 4: As long as the particular song is clean it's fine.

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Turumbar

Now it's my turn! :)

I'm not completely sure yet what I believe. I'm wobbling between 3 and 4. But for the sake of debate ;) I'm going to defend #3: Only clean bands.Ok, here it is debate style!

Contention 1: It's not enough for a specific song to be "clean."

A song being "clean" just means that there are no particularly horrible words or ideas in that one song. This doesn't justify it being listened to by Christians. Why? Because....

Contention 2: We shouldn't just not listen to songs that will hurt us, but we should only listen to songs that actually benefit us.

Now #4 defenders might give several ways in which "clean" songs might benefit us. 1) we like them, 2) we agree with the view being presented(see Demi Lavato comment), 3) they unintentionally glorify God.

Ok now for my responses. 1) just because we like something doesn't mean it benefits us. People like drugs and alchohol, but these things hurt them.

2) just because we agree with the view of a song(like rebellion against Hollywood) doesn't mean it will benefit us. If it doesn't glorify God we shouldn't listen to it.(I'm not saying we should only listen to Christian bands here. I believe "secular" bands can glorify God as well. But "secular" and "Christian" aren't good categories anyway since they only refer to content rather than the actual bands).

3) You can't un-intentionally glorify God. Jesus says you are either for him or against him. If a band is against Him it can only glorify God in the way Satan does: by it's utter failure. This does not justify listening to it.

One of these songs may appear harmless but 1) it doesn't mean that it is. There are many other ways it can harm besides bad language. 2) or it may be harmless, but it isn't beneficial and I would be a bad steward of my time and mind by listening to it. Filling my mind with useless emotion and fluff when I could be doing something for God's glory.

A good example of one of these songs is, "Through Fire and Flames." Music-wise it is awesome, and it's clean. But the band that wrote it is generally: very, very bad. It's Dragonforce. They claim to get their speed from Satan.

So that's my case for number 3. I'm not sure if I believe it all yet. I'm still trying to figure it out. There are lots of good arguments against my points. I wonder if any one else can think them up? :)

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by megjo

you wounded my pride. I thought that bit about praise was a good point. You have a point. I think thats true.
you now what I really dislike is when a "christian band" 4makes a song with a double meaning.

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Turumbar

Double meaning? What do you mean by that?

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

No, Alex. I disagree entirely with your main point most adamantly.
What you’re saying, is that if it’s not good, it’s bad. WRONG! If this were true I would never let you have ice-cream when you come to my house ;)

First of all, you said in your first comment that the point Becca and I made (on how worship shouldn’t be used for entertainment) was off topic. Its not! Before we can say which music is appropriate, you have to clarify your circumstances. Christian, inspirational music and worship hymns should not be degraded to party soundtracks and dance tunes. Therefore, they would be INAPROPRIATE. Would they not? And Rock, Pop, and Love songs would most likely be highly frowned upon in services and church gatherings. But does that means that all music is inappropriate? NO! So I have to specify what the instance, in which I listen to the music, is.

We all love Christ here I hope. We all want to worship Him, praise Him, and be inspired by Him, right? So I will be the first to say that if it is truly Christian, it’s good in my book. I will never have a problem with good clean music, EVER. It just needs to be held with higher respect and glory.

But what about the other music, that while it is not directly Christian, is good, clean, inspiring, and teaches a worthy lesson. There are sooo many songs, that while they do not exactly say anything about Christ, God, Jesus, or The Church, are actually subliminally projecting Christian views. I didn’t want to focus on Demi Lavato, but if I must, YOU, think about it. Her song is about being a leader of yourself, and not conforming to what Hollywood (or celebrities in general) say you have to be like. Hey, given the right website I can easily name many Christian books which say the exact same thing.

So that’s where I’m having trouble with what you said. I guess I can agree with what your point (If its not good, its bad), but I think that your definition of what’s good and what’s bad, is wrong. Would you say that a pearl necklace is ‘bad’ because it’s not a Cross? Would you say a shirt is ‘bad’ because it doesn’t say “I love Jesus”? No. So tell me how songs are any different.

Lady Claire

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

There Becca, we won't just stand there and let him have that one with out a fight. *Glares at Alex like an angry five year old*

Lady Claire

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by megjo

I don't know what the ice cream things about but. Don't you guys think theres a middle ground..like of you wouldn't listen to katy perry when your hanging out.If youre a christian. but you shouldn't listen to worship if you have no intention of doing so
ps..nice CL

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

I would compromise, but I don’t really know what middle ground there is. Alex says that if it doesn’t give glory to God directly, it isn’t good music. I can’t agree with that.

I do agree with him that if an artist has an unsavory character, then so will his/her/their songs. I have found that to be very true in the past. So there is that middle ground.

Lady Claire

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Observation 1: Definitions

You need to define what your topic means. (What do you mean by "appropriate"? )

David

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May. 23, 2009 - on

Posted by megjo

~Alex,
Like you think its about God..or something profound
Then you hear it on a simisecular station and it is suggested that its about a girl..lifehouse has done that before
becca

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Becca's right.
All these other points aside.
How do you know its about Jesus. I know a ton of songs that sound like they're about God but they're really about some girl.

I really think this whole debate comes down to personal discretion, (with Christian beliefs and morals in consideration).

Lady Claire

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by megjo

LC is right alex
;)

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by PoeticMaiden

Personally, I'd say #4, but that's only for myself. I think there are some people that would have a chance of being drawn in my a band that was just on the edge, and for someone like that I think #2 would be a better choice. Really, it's a matter of how much your soul can withstand. If you can listen to music that is on the edge and not be affected by it, I'd say you don't have to restrict yourself. But if your conscience has a problem with it, then by all means listen to your conscience.

(Great discussion, by the way!)

~Cherise

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May. 23, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

She' right!!!
Its like I've been saying, you have to use your own discretion. Follow Gods rules and your conscience (great point PM) and make the descision.

Lady Claire

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May. 24, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Sorry to kinda crash the conversation...

1 Cor 10:23 (NASB)
"All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify."

Sorry, I haven't even read the comments, but I think this passage pretty much summarizes my position on music.

Second thought: It also depends on circumstances and how you are feeling at the time. If you're in traffic, it generally is stupid to listen to heavy metal.

> < > Brian

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May. 24, 2009 - <em>Untitled Comment</em>

Posted by Anonymous

You're right Brian, but Paul wasnï¿½t referring to Godï¿½s laws in that verse. He was referring to the laws of states. Gods laws are ALWAYS profitable and ALWAYS edifying. Follow His laws when appropriating music, and you will always come out on top side.

But I agree with you when you say Heavy Metal is not a good idea when in a stressful or potentially aggravating situation. Good point.

But likewise, you shouldnï¿½t just break into hymns because you canï¿½t think of anything better to do. You have to have your mind in the right place and be sincere. "Thou shalt not take The Lords name in vainï¿½. Listening to music that is meant to glorify God for entertainment, is taking His name in vain.

Lady Claire

Edited by Turumbar on May. 26, 2009 at 10:28 AM

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May. 24, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Tess K

I am for number 6! Which is I will listen to whatever I want to, and I'll leave it between me and God! I may change my view, but for right now I can't think about it with a seven year olds around!

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May. 25, 2009 - In Defense of #4

Posted by The Billipian

In Response to the Response to unmade argument #3: You can "un-intentionally" glorify God. It's true you're either for or against Jesus but what about bands who don't realize their for or against. It is possible to glorify God and not have any particular standing. Example: "What A Wonderful World" Louis Armstrong. He doesn't exactly say "Glory to God" he just talks about what a wonderful world we are in...This world is God's creation, so in turn he is glorifying God without necessarily saying the exact phrase.

And your example of "Dragonforce" if it's "awesome music-wise" then aren't they "un-intentionally" glorifying God?

In Response to the Response to unmade argument #1: You said "Just because we like something doesn't mean it benefit's us" and then you proceeded to give example of drugs and alcohol. #4 Is completely against songs that you might "like" but "could hurt you". #4 says that the song is "clean". If the song is "clean" why would it hurt you? You might like a song that isn't "clean" but under #4 you wouldn't listen to that song.

Just because you listen to a song that glorifies God, but the song writer is known to be "not clean". Does not mean that the song no longer glorifies God.

-Ben

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May. 25, 2009 - P.S.

Posted by The Billipian

P.S. Also: God makes ways to glorify himself. It's not up to us to make sure he's glorified. (While it's very good thing and we should) He's going to be glorified no matter what.

As C.S. Lewis said: â€œA man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.â€

-Ben

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May. 26, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by AuthorElf

Ohhhhhh.....this looks interesting.

I can say that I can deffinately not agree with number one. Modern music is out there, and not all of it is bad. Pretending that it doesn't exist and not listening to it is throwing the baby out with the bath water (pardon my cliche). There are many skilled artists out there whose music is perfectly acceptable.

Now, here's where I'm going to get shoes thrown at me. I agree with two, three, and four, all at the same time. I think that it varies by person. I, personally, go for the clean songs (#4). When I hear a song that I think I like, I listen to or read all lyrics before getting it on my ipod. The music I have is drawn from many places and it edifies me.
But at the front of my mind as I looked this debate over was Romans 14:2-4. "One believes he may eat anything, while the weak man eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains pass judgment on him who eats; for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own masters that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand." This passage is, of course, speaking of food, but there's a principle there. There are people who are at a point where they feel that they can only listen to Christian music. On the other hand, there are people who are at a point where they feel that they can listen to whose only fliter is clean lyrics. Others are in between. None of those places are shameful. The main point is for that person to not cause themselves or anyone else to stumble. One's playlist should be measured against Scripture and arranged accordingly.

Annnnd, I dissagree with number five; it DOES matter. Garbage in, garbage out. Hearing, say, cuss words in your music, for example, may not seem to make a difference at first, but after a time, you suddenly find yourself thinking or using them. In a music infused culture like ours, music is one of the ways we define ourselves. You can tell alot about a person by scrolling through the songs on their music player. What we listen to affects our attitude, thought process, vocabulary, wardrobe, and decor.
I'm not entirely certain I understand number six, although I may have just presented an argument for it. :)

~Justyne

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May. 26, 2009 - <em>Untitled Comment</em>

Posted by Joshuahammond

Hello.. I'm Back.. Hey Alex, do you want us to just pick one of your options and try to defend it. Or to try and answer what music is appropriate to listen to?

:)

Joshua

Edited by Joshuahammond on May. 26, 2009 at 9:17 AM

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May. 26, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

You said it, Justyne.
TOTAL ditto.

Lady Claire

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May. 26, 2009 - Responses

Posted by Turumbar

1 ~Becca
Ok, I understand what you mean by double meaning now. I hate it also, especially when Christians do it. I think that is a point where you might not want to listen to a song even where it could be understood as a clean song because it's intent is that its talking about a girl and saying things that should only be said about God.

2 ~Tess K
That is an interesting view. I hope that it's just the seven year-olds and that you don't really think that. No human is strong enough to rely on his or herself. EVERYTHING is between you and God but that doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. Thanks for commenting though? Are you on HSB?

3 ~Josh
Defend what you believe. Every belief should fit one of the options though. If it doesn't fit the first five there's always #6:other. ;)

Edited by Turumbar on May. 26, 2009 at 10:41 AM

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May. 26, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Joshuahammond

Josh: Also seems to be supporting option 4. He has the best support possible: the Bible :D. My question for Josh is this: Are the secular bands you are talking about mostly clean bands or does that not matter as long as the particular song is clean?”

Thanks for bringing that up Alex! I forgot  the Best option on there is #3. The only thing I’d change is to say, “Music that is centered around Christ”. Now that can be taken to mean something very small, but it shouldn’t be taken so, seeing that Jesus is much more holy and Awesome than we currently see.

One might think first of that the Firmament (heavens... sky) isn’t centered around Christ.

Psalm 19:1-3 “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork. 2Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.”

I could see a secular Band thinking, “let make some clean some to try and capture the Heart of those who won’t listen to our other songs, then we got them!” After all, this is what people are doing with Movies. But then the motive is the most important aspect of something I think. (Dr. Jeklly and Mr. Hide) So if a song is clean, why is it clean? So back to the Clean is not enough.... everything should be Christ centered. I didn’t really think a whole lot in my last post but what I wanted to express was that it’s not what’s on the outside of the song that’s most important, because Matt 12:34 “for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.”

So now. Music is a language that provokes feeling emotion, more than I know... It provokes the things in a person’s heart more so rather than the mind! Now I don’t want to say,”this is right music and this is bad music”... There may be things in someone’s music that are good and bad, to an extent that is defined by the person, but that extent is not a gray area.
Romans 14:14, 23 (or you can read 14:14-23 it might be helpful)
“14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.”

“23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.”

But what about Classical music? Is it clean or bad or good. I wouldn’t say yes or no! Music is a tool, it’s amoral. But what Alex, I think, is hitting on is that it matters who is playing the music. I’ve noticed that the people I am under or hang around I’m influenced by just as if I’m in the sun I get burnt, or in water I get wet.  sure, there are no perfect people or songs, But there are people who have given their lives to Jesus and who’s heart is to give Him glory with every ounce of themselves.
So I think it may boil down to this (I’ve watched a few debate rounds now and noticed the Boiler term.... ) the things that I think it boils down to are that we can’t exclude Jesus from the Picture. If we find that music is making us say, “I’ll come back after this song Jesus” it is not a good song for us to listen to then.... Well I may chip in more, but for now there you go Alex! The last thing I’d say is, I know that my arguments have holes in them, and I don’t have this whole thing figured out ether.... but anyways...

Joshua

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May. 26, 2009 - Refutation #1

Posted by Turumbar

Wow I have a lot to respond to!!! First of all: Thanks to everyone for so enthusiastically joining the debate! I'm having a lot of fun with it and I hope we can all learn from each other.

I want to remind everyone that the position I am defending is not one I'm completely sure of yet. I'm totally open, but I'm taking it on for the sake of debate and to test it to see if it is true(that's why I started this debate :)).

Ok here goes...

First of all, thank you David for reminding me of the importance of definitions.
"Christian music:" CCM(Christian Contemporary Music, not necessarily worship though.
Glorifying God: Bringing glory to God through goodness. I totally agree with Billipian(Ben B.) that everything brings glory to God(the bad through contrast to his might and glory).
Appropriate: What is good for a Christian to listen too.

Lady Claire: You say that I'm basically saying that if it's not good it must be evil. No!!! I'm saying that if it doesn't glorif God it is a waste and bad stewardship of time and mind to listen to it.

Ok, about worship music, I agree it's not party music but this debate is about what is apropriate in general. That's why this is off topic though I mostly agree with you and Becca on this.

I agree that not only Christian music is good. Other bands that aren't Christian bring him glory in the sense that I defined above. (Again not wanting to make Demi Lavato a main point) Christians are not supposed leaders of themselves except in the sense that we should not let the world lead us. God should always be our leader and we should let him control our lives. Now I'm not saying anything against Demi Lavato, only what you said about the song. I've only heard the song once and as far as I know there's nothing wrong with it.

You and Becca say we should take a "middle-ground" and you said I'm leaving you no middle ground. Good. There is no middle ground. Jesus said, "Those who are not with me are against me," and in another verse, "Those who are not against me are with me." There is no middle ground, the universe is in a cosmic war with everyone split into two sides.This is what has always been taught in Christianity throughout history. But at the same time this doesn't mean only Christian music is good. I believe there are many non-Christians that are on Christ's side of the war and just haven't come all the way along their journey to him yet. I guess this is where I disagree with some ultra-conservatives.

Ok here's a quote from you.
"So thatâ€™s where Iâ€™m having trouble with what you said. I guess I can agree with what your point (If its not good, its bad), but I think that your definition of whatâ€™s good and whatâ€™s bad, is wrong. Would you say that a pearl necklace is â€˜badâ€™ because itâ€™s not a Cross? Would you say a shirt is â€˜badâ€™ because it doesnâ€™t say â€œI love Jesusâ€? No. So tell me how songs are any different."

~I'm not saying a song has to be about God in order to glorify him. It can even be about a girl, or most things. In the same way a shirt with nothing on it can fulfill it's purpose as clothing so can a song that doesn't mention Jesus glorify God.

You seem to in your next comment to say there is "good" music that doesn't give glory to God. Can you define what might make that music "good" except God, who is the only good one?

Another quote from you, "I really think this whole debate comes down to personal discretion, (with Christian beliefs and morals in consideration)."

~This sounds very relativistic. There has to be one absolute truth about which music glorifies God. No human can probably find that whole truth, but it is our duty to do our best to uncover as much as we can with God's help. Of course there may be differences for individuals(some song might contain a temptation for someone despite being fine for most) but personal discretion has no part in the life of a Christian if he/she doesn't search for God's Truth about a matter first.

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May. 26, 2009 - Refutation #2

Posted by Turumbar

~ Cherise (Poetic Maiden)

Thanks for commenting! I thought all my HSB friends had forgotten me except Becca(that goes for you to AuthorElf)!

My one question about what you said, is if a song is on the edge, 1)what puts it on the edge? 2)does it glorify got? 3) Why should ANYONE listen to it?

~Brian

Thanks for the verse, man! This is reallly something I should have quoted myself earlier! And no Lady Claire it is NOT talking laws of states. He WAS talking about God's laws. I checked the context, you should too :).

1 Cor 10:23 (NASB)
"All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify."

What it is saying is that though many things are not wrong or sinful this doesn't mean we are justified in doing them(in this case listening to them).

And yes, as you pointed out Brian, there are many non-moral factors that go into this question as well though we've been debating purely moral ones so far. :)

~The Billipian(Ben B.)
Yes many non-Christian music glorifies God. Thus that music good to listen too. But if you are talking in the sense that everything glorifies God, then look at my definition in the post above.

Quoting you, "And your example of "Dragonforce" if it's "awesome music-wise" then aren't they "un-intentionally" glorifying God? "

It may music-wise glorify God, but the lyrics were written from a point of view very much opposite, though without being "bad" in the the conventional sense.

Quoting you again"In Response to the Response to unmade argument #1: You said "Just because we like something doesn't mean it benefit's us" and then you proceeded to give example of drugs and alcohol. #4 Is completely against songs that you might "like" but "could hurt you". #4 says that the song is "clean". If the song is "clean" why would it hurt you? You might like a song that isn't "clean" but under #4 you wouldn't listen to that song."

~ It really depends on what you define as "clean." Most people define that by meaning the song is not explicit and doesn't have bad language. There are other way in which songs can be harmful, though. And under any reasonable definition it still is not necessarily beneficial.

Quote,"Just because you listen to a song that glorifies God, but the song writer is known to be "not clean". Does not mean that the song no longer glorifies God. "

~ Very good question. This is the main thing I'm trying o figure out now. Congrats for being the first to bring it up. It is the best argument for #4 yet. One thing though to be very careful about is if it is from a band definitely not on Christ's side in any way(example:Dragonforce) than you should be very careful to make sure that the song really is glorifying to God.

I totally agree with your second comment. Just see definition in post above. :)

~ Justine (AuthorElf)
Quote,"I agree with two, three, and four, all at the same time. I think that it varies by person."

It seems you are not only talking in the moral sense but in the practical as well(see above Brian). I agree practicality can make thing more strict even than moral reasons as well.

Quote, "When I hear a song that I think I like, I listen to or read all lyrics before getting it on my ipod. The music I have is drawn from many places and it edifies me. "

~ Good! I hope we all research our music before getting into it. My argument in this debate is only that when we are looking we should only choose that which edifies and is profitable and glorifying to God.

I'm glad you quote the passage from Romans. No one should point fingers at anyone else. No human can know the full truth about this as I wrote above. I usually don't talk about this at all and am only doing it now for friendly debate and to learn more. But also we must be careful not to draw relativistic conclusions from this passage which is easy to do. Yes, because many non-moral factors make standards different for different people should not keep us from seeing that God only has ONE moral standard.

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May. 26, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Turumbar

~ Josh
Yay! Someone else supporting #3!

Quote, "The only thing Iâ€™d change is to say, â€œMusic that is centered around Christâ€"

It's a good idea. Only I was afraid people would take that as meaning only Christian music.

I totally agree: Clean IS NOT enough! Thanks for writing on that! Motives are THE MOST important thing.

Now we've been purely talking about lyrics so far in this debate, but as Josh says the music itself can affect us. This is where the intent of the artist is supremely important! If he is writing with a heart towards God(whether or not he's a Christian) his music will glorify God as well.

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May. 26, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Becca

What bible do you use alex?

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May. 26, 2009 - This is the 45th comment...

Posted by Ness

I have three things to talk about here, first of all Turumbar's comment earlier near the begining

Concerning Logical fallacies:
Turumbar said : "1) just because we like something doesn't mean it benefits us. People like drugs and alchohol, but these things hurt them."
I just wanted to say this is a logical fallacy.
I don't think anyone argued we should just listen to whatever we like the sound of. (Cherise (PM) had a great post about that not too lobg ago.)
They were talking about being clean even though it doesn't explicitly mention God. I've never heard of alcohol and drugs being considered good.

Concerning Lyrics:
I think it doesn't have to be blatantly Christian. We read many books that don't ever mention God and are still edifying. In Out of the Silent Planet by C.S. lewis, he never mentions God once in that book ad yet it is a very Christian book. Besides that there are many other books which aren't so clearly Christian that have a good message and inspire us towards good things. I think anything that points us to God and glorifies God is music worth listening too.

Concerning music:

Now everyone is talking about lyrics and that's great, but Josh and Alex brought up a more intresting topic of the actual music.
I think that the music effects more than he words of the song. Of course this does depend on the song to some extent. Yes the words are important you don't want to be listening to bad words, but the music is important as well.
Now I think Rock is mostly bad. Yes there can be good stuff about rock and maybe I'd want to listen to some, but constantly listening to it is bad for you.
I've listened to rock and I'm sure they are good rock songs but the genre in and of itself has a lot of bad in it.
There have been studies done that show how much music really effects us.
They put rock music by some plants they were grownig and they died. Then they took same type of plants and under the same conditions and listened to classical music and the plants thrived. Rock music has been show to cause severe damage in people and classical music has been show to help children and help kids with mental problems. Musical therapy has been shown to work.
They don't use rock music when trying to heal someone because it isn't helpful! they use classical and jazz and folk music.
My Uncle was telling me about a kid who had a lot of brain damage and he had helped him enough to where he could sit up or stand up (I don't really remember the exact details:-) by talking to her and play soft jazz music and they did other stuff too, I can' remember all of it.
Anyway it took a long time and but it did eventually help the kid.
I've listened to songs that made me depressed and feel sick afterwards, songs without words.
I've also been unhappy and depressed and after listening a piece by Vivaldi it completely cheered me up.
We should listen to music that's edifying that lifts us up and fills us with joy. Music that brings us closer to God even if it never mentions him. Neither does the sky or the trees or the wind or the ocean and yet they all bring glory to God.

~Ness

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May. 26, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Quoting Alex M.: "It may music-wise glorify God, but the lyrics were written from a point of view very much opposite, though without being "bad" in the the conventional sense."

Oh ok, I thought what you meant by "awesome music-wise" was that the song glorified God. But if the song lyrics are not then #4 say's not to listen to that song.

Before we get into too much, let's see how Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary defines "clean": "Free from dirt, or other foul matter" I think that's a pretty good definition of clean.

Of course peoples opinion of what "foul matter" is may differ. But let's remove opinion, with a objective quote: Philippians 4:8 "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirableâ€”if anything is excellent or praiseworthyâ€”think about such things."

I like that definition of "clean" the best. :) So according to this verse our music should be: True, Noble, Right, Pure, Lovely, and Admirable... This would be my accepted definition of clean. And I hope others agree. :D

-Ben B.

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May. 26, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Alex, I’m very much afraid that we are talking apples and oranges. I am not sure what you are talking about and I don’t think you understand me either.

You said you are talking about music ‘in general’. If so, then you force me to rule Christian music out all together. I will not have it degraded to ‘in general’.

And , Alex, you said that in my comment, I said, ‘there is “good” in music that doesn’t give glory to God’.
I never said that. YOU misquoted me. I said ‘there is good music that doesn’t DIRECTLY give glory to God’. An idea which I extrapolated also from a comment made by ‘Billipian”, about the Louis Armstrong classic ‘What a Wonderful World’, a song which, while it doesn’t give glory DIRECTLY to God, is ‘un-intentionally’ glorifying Him.

And as for the scripture reference, Corinthians 10:23:
“All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.”

You totally missed my point. This scripture is referring to something entirely different than the sort of thing this debate is concentrating on. I encourage anyone to check it out and see for themselves. The fact of the matter is God’s laws are ALWAYS profitable and ALWAYS edify. That’s what I said earlier and that’s what I’m sticking to.

Now from there, what I’m trying to say is that it is impossible to tell what music is appropriate for ALL people. There are so many acceptations in music, and even more for each person. That’s why I said use discretion. And when I said PERSONAL discretion, I did not mean to specify ‘the person against God’; I meant to specify ‘the person against other persons’. You should note, that I said to use personal discretion ‘with Christian beliefs and morals in consideration’. I also commented later on, agreeing with PM, that you should use your conscience. This is exactly what I meant when I referred to discretion. You agreed with her, why not me? So, how is it relativistic?

My whole stand is, I cannot say what IS appropriate music. I can’t say it for myself and I won’t dare say it for anyone else. I can only know what is INappropriate and avoid it.

Lady Claire

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May. 26, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Okay, Alex, that’s enough for the mean comments. :P Now let me talk about where I agree with you.

First off, the whole concept you presented about how the band should be clean not just the music.
You totally said it. I would never listen to Lindsay Lohan’s music, or Maria Carrie’s, or 98.9999999% of the rap artist’s music. :I If they are not living the Word of God, they are in no position to preach it. Directly or indirectly. It is blaspheme. And I will NOT hear the utterance of blaspheme. Plus whatever is in there songs and music will be poison with every word. It is an empty void of filth and death. You have hit a GREAT point. And I would love for everyone to expand on it.

Also liked the idea you presented about how there are people on Christ’s side who don’t really know it. That’s an idea I have tried to share with members of my family without as much luck. I’m glad to see someone agrees.

Oh yeah and you asked PM ‘if a song is on the edge what puts it on the edge?’ What a brilliant question. You really made me think with that one. Let me add to that. What does ‘edgy’ even mean… /:I I’ll have to think about this whole thing because you’re so right. If ‘edgy’ is a bad thing, like it sounds, maybe we shouldn’t listen to it. You should have asked me that question, too. Oh-well.

I really like this debate thing. You should totally keep it up. ;) If I do decide to stay home from school, I will definitely be doing Speech and Debate. *claps*

Thanks for all the fun.
Talk to you later.

Lady Claire ;)

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May. 26, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Rebecca

Music is like gossip..its always there and sometimes you particapate lol..Honestly though I understand all of these points. Thankfully though are salvation is not based on music
Great thoughts and views everyone
God bless,
Becca

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May. 26, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Turumbar

~ Becca
Several. Usually RSV. Also have NIV and King James and NKJ and others. What I quoted was from NASB(New American Standard Bible) because that's what Brian used. I think I own one though or at least an ASB.

~ Ness

1. Not exactly a logical fallacy, though perhaps a bad analogy.

2. I think everyone on here agrees with this about lyrics. What we're talking about is: what outside of Christian music is appropriate.

3. I totally agree music is important, but not :more: important.

About the studies and Uncle Dean's patient: These would be physical rather than moral reasons not to listen to something. Also we have no idea what music they used in studies. Rock is a super general term that can include stuff that stretches from screamo to music that is almost folk.

Quote, "We should listen to music that's edifying that lifts us up and fills us with joy. Music that brings us closer to God even if it never mentions him. Neither does the sky or the trees or the wind or the ocean and yet they all bring glory to God." ~ AMEN

~Billipian(Ben B.)

Quote"Oh ok, I thought what you meant by "awesome music-wise" was that the song glorified God. But if the song lyrics are not then #4 say's not to listen to that song."

Clean =/= glory to God
I agree with your definition
But clean is not all that's important.
You're verse tells us what is.

~Lady Claire

I don't know what you mean by apples and oranges but I'll address the points you actually explained.

1. Music in general = music that is appropriate in some normal circumstance, which should include worship.

I agree with you worship music shouldn't be played at a wild party, but I disagree with you on other aspects of this. First let me clarify. You seem to to think "Christian" music = worship. Majority not true, look at definition in earlier post. If you mean more than worship, that we shouldn't listen to music ABOUT God in non-worship times I totally disagree with you. We should think about and here about God at all times. And if you insist that hearing about God should = praying than listen to the Bible when it tells you to "pray continuously" at all times.

2. Sorry if I misquoted you.I'm not indicting any particular songs and I agree a song doesn't have to be Christian to glorify God(as I said before). But it MUST glorify God for it to be good for a Christian to listen to it.

3. As for the scripture reference. Please go read the context people. It is saying though most things aren't sinful we should only do what is not only not sinful but also profitable.

4. I agree with most of what you say here. But there has to be a base standard that applies to all people. Such as not listening certain songs with evil lyrics. Saying there is a different standard for different people is what is relativistic. We shouldn't follow Personal discretion but only GOD discretion.

Quote "My whole stand is, I cannot say what IS appropriate music. I canâ€™t say it for myself and I wonâ€™t dare say it for anyone else. I can only know what is Inappropriate and avoid it."

Then if you know all that is inappropriate you should know what is appropriate. :) Otherwise you should stick only to what you know is appropriate because you don't know all that is inappropriate. Sorry, that statement is a double bind.

~ second comment

1. yes, bad bands almost always = bad music
this statement just totally backs #3. I think you've been defending it the whole time and we've been arguing about other things. :)

2. About who's on Christ's side. It's my opinion and I think it's supported by the Bible and the Church, but the Bible doesn't directly say as far as I know.

3. I'd love to hear your answer to the edge question. ;)

4. Yay! stay home!

~ Rebecca

Yes, it's good our salvation doesn't depend on this. :D
What do you mean it's like gossip, though?

PS: Disclaimer nd apology
A friend sent me lyrics for that Dragonforce song and though it is "clean" it is bad in that it is Satan speaking and spouting out evil things. So I take it back as an example. :( But I'm sure you can think of others.

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May. 26, 2009 - Clean

Posted by The Billipian

Alex M.: "Clean =/= glory to God
I agree with your definition
But clean is not all that's important.
You're verse tells us what is."

Yes that's right clean is not all that's important, the verse does tell us what is. But #3 says "clean" bands. So if #4 needs more than clean, so does #3.

I'm not exactly a #4. As I said in my last comment, that I agree with the verse (Philippians 4:8). So I do believe that more than "clean" is important.

Thanks so much for the discussion!
-Ben B.

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May. 26, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Ben C.

Hey Y'all! I pretty much told myself that i wouldn't comment on this post and kinda just stay out, but I thought just a few things needed to be said. :) so here it goes!

IMHO: Music is like fire. Very much. It can be used to encourage and warm, strengthen and illuminate, or it can be used to destroy and burn up.

No matter what song you are listening to. No matter who is playing it, or how the way they are playing it, the music WILL affect you in SOME way.

Music speaks DIRECTLY to the heart. I LOVE music. :) a LOT! With those ideas in mind, let's look at some pragmatic results. (lol)

Result 1.

It doesn't matter what band plays it, if it has a good message, it is a good song. The inverse is also true. If it has a bad message (even if the band is KNOWN to have good messages all the time) then it's a bad song. that simple.

God uses even stones and rocks to cry out! Who's to say that God can't use bands that do not know Him to bring Him praise?

Although, in all reality, bands that are known for their evil communication are GENERALLY not going to all of the sudden begin playing songs that communicate morality and (or) obedience. :P

We must be careful.

Result 2.

Whether the message is good or not is determined by what is COMMUNICATED in the song. Most of us already know that communication is more than just words. ;)

So if, for instance, a song has decent lyrics, but distorts them SOOO bad that they SOUND just like obscenities or something, it ends up communicating the wrong thing, and is therefore a song we should not be opening our hearts to. And that leads us to our final result:

Result 3. Music is AWESOME! and it's awesome because when we listen to it, it speaks directly to our hearts in ways we can't understand. That's why it's such a blessing, and can be such a curse.

We have to take our music seriously. Now IMHO, I highly value talent. (lol) and that means that i also like songs (Celtic, bluegrass, etc) that have no lyrics, but bring a happy and joyful melody that speaks straight to my heart and makes me feel very happy and joyful.

My 2 favorite bands are probably: Casting Crowns, and Jars of Clay. Because their melodies are beautiful (and or) cool, and the words have MEANING. :) But i have quite a few other bands i also enjoy.

I hope this comment wasn't too long! And i'm really sorry to make this already exhaustingly long comment trail longer! :P

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May. 27, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

I finally understand where you¡¦re coming from. You¡¦ve been referring to Christian numbers (like ¡§Flood¡¨ by Jars of Clay), not actual hymns. I get it. ;)

But I still don¡¦t generalize it with the rest of the music out there. It is held in higher regard. My point wasn¡¦t that you should never listen to it unless you¡¦re in a somber and reverent mood or place; my point was that you should never listen to it if you¡¦re in a rowdy, crazy, or insincere mood or place. It would be like saying the words of a prayer for fun, or (as I said earlier) like taking The Lord¡¦s Name in vain. You shouldn¡¦t say it if you don¡¦t mean it. I do think that it should be listened to MORE than any other kind of music, but not in the same instances. However, strictly for the sake of this debate, I will consider it an acceptable option and not ¡¥part of¡¦, but ¡¥with¡¦ the other music.

And as for the comment on praying without ceasing, again, I DO believe that the hymns should always be running in our heads, but we have to mean them and not be using them for entertainment.

Thank you for clarifying your statement about my comment. I do think that a song can glorify God without being a Christian song; but I agree that if it DOESN¡¦T glorify Him in some way, it cannot be good for a Christian to listen to.

We must have different bibles. I have read the whole chapter of Corinthians 10 and have no idea what you¡¦re talking about. The Gentiles are sacrificing animals and putting the meat in the market. Some Christians were forced to buy that meat, and apparently other Christians were getting on their case about it. All Paul was saying was, don¡¦t ask where the meat came from and don¡¦t worry about it.
In fact, you can try to enlighten me, because, to be honest, I¡¦m quite confused about the whole context. However, I know that if God sets a law, then following it will always bring you to the right place and that¡¦s what I¡¦ve been trying to say.

You also said that there had ¡¥to be a base standard that applies to all people¡¦ when it came to the appropriateness of music. Well, there is if you are deciding what is definitely INapropriate. Some things are just BAD. Almost every Christian knows what these things are. They avoid them easily. But to define what IS appropriate is what is so hard. You yourself said ¡§some song might contain a temptation for someone despite being fine for most¡¨. There are so many exceptions and it¡¦s too dicey to decide. This is why I said to use personal discretion. For some reason I am failing to get across to you what I¡¦ve been trying to say by this. I have said, I do not mean to use ¡¥your discretion as apposed to God¡¦s¡¦; I mean ¡¥to use your discretion as apposed to someone else¡¦s¡¦. Please try to understand, I am not trying to say we should just go and do whatever we want. I am saying that we should decide what music to listen to based on what is between us and God, not other people.
And as for us trying to use ¡¥God¡¦s discretion¡¦, who are we to try and decide what God¡¦s discretion even is. He¡¦s the only one who knows. ¡§To try and KNOW The Lord is folly¡¨-E. W. Wilcox. We use PERSONAL DESCRETION to decide what we THINK he wants ¡¥using our conscience¡¦ ¡¥with Christian beliefs and morals in consideration¡¦. That¡¦s all I have been saying.

YES! We have been arguing the same option *laughs* :D When I first took up option #6 I thought you had written them in order of elimination. First eliminating all ¡¥modern, pop, rock, rap, etc.¡¦ Then eliminating everything but ¡¥Christian music¡¦, then eliminating any Christian music that isn¡¦t from a ¡¥band that is clean¡¦, then everything that isn¡¦t a ¡¥clean, Christian song, from a clean band¡¦. So naturally I chose ¡¥other¡¦. There are plenty of good songs that are not ¡¥Christian¡¦ per se. But now that I see what you really meant, I change my mind. #3! So when it comes to the options, we have been in total agreement even though we didn¡¦t know it. You¡¦re right, I¡¦m totally #3. That¡¦s sooo funny. It¡¦s what I meant when I said that I thought we were arguing apples and oranges. I knew something was up.

Well, sorry for the super long comment. I think we are finally coming to that ¡¥middle ground¡¦ Becca was talking about *winks at Becca* ƒº Its too bad. I was having so much fun. ;D

Talk to you later,

Lady Claire

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May. 27, 2009 - Response to your comment on my comment

Posted by Tess K

Alex,
Having reread your original post, I still find it hard to find a number I would fall under. I listen to clean songs that are not on the most appropriate albums, and I sometimes buy relatively clean albums for a song that is not the most appropriate. I am not saying I listen to lewd nasty music, but they certainly are not edifying. Do I think the type of music you listen to can effect your discerment? At times, yes! Sometimes I get so upset and feel so rebellious, I go an listen to music that feeds the way I am feeling, and that does effect my judgement. I do think it is best to listen songs that are pure and keep your mind pure, but I don't think it is a sin to listen to some secular music.
As for my last comment, it was not meant to start an argument. It was an inside joke meant for someone else who is an avid reader of your blog, and who I knew would read my comment and get the humour, so sorry for the comment. Oh, and no I am not presently active on HSB!
later, Tess

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May. 27, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by megjo

I think we need a new post?? To comment on...

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May. 27, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Pip

I've always been told that what you listen to influences you. If you listen to a lot of stupid trash about stuff you aren't old enough to intake wisely or stuff you don't need to hear no matter how old you are, it's going to influence the way you think. Some things are bad for degrading your standards, but there really isn't a set grouping for this degradation; some artists have made good beneficial songs on one CD or whatever, and then trashy songs the next. It depends, but it does indeed matter.
Here's a question; with some songs, does it matter? Do you become blind to the bad stuff if you blot it out or ignore it while you're listening to it? What about a song which has some good stuff and some not so awesome content? Aren't we supposed to glean good from everything, or should we stick only and strictly to what we KNOW is free of antiChristian or blatant themes no matter if it has a bit of good in it? Are we missing out if we do this?
Interesting discussion going on here; y'all have amazingly perceptive opinions.
God bless,
~PIP~

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May. 28, 2009 - A few Questions...

Posted by Anonymous

Hey Lady Claire! My name's Ben, and I'm happy to meet you! I just have a FEW questions to ask just for clarification. I apologize before-hand if my questions have already been answered in previous comments as I (unfortunately) haven't had time to read the other 50. :P

But my questions will be directed towards your latest comment. :)

1st, Have you ever enjoyed, and or/ were entertained by a really exciting sermon, or Bible Time? You said in your last comment:

"my point was that you should never listen to it if you're in a rowdy, crazy, or insincere mood or place. It would be like saying the words of a prayer for fun, or (as I said earlier) like taking The Lord's Name in vain. You shouldn't say it if you don't mean it."

Your contention itself I completely disagree with. I find God's music IMMENSELY entertaining, in fact, I would be quite scared I was not at the right type of party with the right type of people if Jesus' music would not be appreciated at any given moment. ;-)

While I DO agree that you shouldn't pray without meaning it, I DO believe that you can and should be able to worship God and be entertained (at a party etc) at the same time. :)

I believe we are looking at it just a bit too legalistically. :)

2ndly, about Corinthians 10:23... Is that verse praising The Law, or is it praising The Spirit of The Law?

"All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify." - I Corinthians 10:23

Your application of this verse was: "Im quite confused about the whole context. However, I know that if God sets a law, then following it will always bring you to the right place and thats what Ive been trying to say."

While I agree with the majority of that statement, this verse isn't really talking about how great only following the law is. My (humble, and inexperienced) take on that verse is that it is revealing the short-falls of only following the laws (legalistically). We must follow the laws yes, but more importantly, the spirit in which the laws were written. Following the Spirit will result in following the laws as well, but our focus as Christians needs to be on the Spirit.

Again, we are looking at it too legalistically. :)

Oh, and just a completely random, and strangely and completely off-topic question, do you really defend Wilcox' statement: "to try to know the Lord is folly"?

Thanks! :D

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May. 28, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by megjo

~Ben
LC is not saying she doesn't appreciate or hang around with people who do not appreciate worship music.
That was ridiculous.Worship should be sincere. You should be able to listen to edifying music and worship while enjoying it,but trying to do that in a distracting environment is wrong. I have found when people do that it is because they want to be seen.
Becca

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May. 28, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Turumbar

First of all I noticed that I haven't been completely defending #3 like I said I would, but have strayed into other related subjects. It seems I've been defending a modified #4 after all. Oh well! I still believe number #3 in 99.9% of cases but I've actually been defending some exception in my previous posts. But the different option were just a mode of starting debste on the subject, so it doesn't really matter.

~Billipian(Ben B.)
1. I totally agree! "Clean" is not the most important thing! That has been my point all along!

2.What you say about #3 and #4 is true, look at my comment above. I've actually been defending more than "clean" all along, check my previous posts. :)

~Ben C.
Result #1: I know I've said I'm defending #3 but Ben has pretty much convinced me here from his post and from talking with him that the band itself doesn't matter so much if the song is glorifying to God. That's why I said I'm a modified #4 above. I still think #3 is true 99.9% of the time, because bad bands almost NEVER produce God-glorifying songs. And that is the criteria for whether a Christian should listen to a song. We must ask: Does this song give God the glory and is it edifying and profitable?

Result #2: Right on!

Result #3: Yes! And the music it self can definitely influence us for good or bad just as the lyrics can. But lyrics dominate.

~ Lady Claire

1. I totally disagree with you in what you say about Christian music. All I can do is quote two quotes that explain my position:

Quoting me: "If you mean more than worship, that we shouldn't listen to music ABOUT God in non-worship times I totally disagree with you. We should think about and here about God at all times. And if you insist that hearing about God should = praying than listen to the Bible when it tells you to "pray continuously" at all times."

Quoting Ben: "Your contention itself I completely disagree with. I find God's music IMMENSELY entertaining, in fact, I would be quite scared I was not at the right type of party with the right type of people if Jesus' music would not be appreciated at any given moment. ;-) "

2. Quoting LC, "Thank you for clarifying your statement about my comment. I do think that a song can glorify God without being a Christian song; but I agree that if it DOESNÂ¡Â¦T glorify Him in some way, it cannot be good for a Christian to listen to."

Thanks for conceding to my whole argument. :D

3. Ok, this verse isn't specific and reading the chapter I see how you could come by your conclusion, so I'll answer this from both points of view.

First, assuming my view that it is talking about what is permitted by God(in light of the meat yes, because Paul says eating the meat sacrificed to idols is not a sin in and of itself but only in so-much as it is a stumbling block to others). You said earlier that, "The fact of the matter is Godâ€™s laws are ALWAYS profitable and ALWAYS edify."
Ok, let me address this. In the Old Testament God permitted certain things because the people were not ready for them to be forbidden. (Examples: God permitted many wives, God used animal sacrifice because that's what the people knew). So God's "laws" are not always profitable and edifying but the way in which he helps his people grow. He permits certain things because of human weakness but that doesn't mean that there isn't a better and a "profitable" way.

Second, if it is men's laws: The argument that we should only listen to what is profitable and edifying still holds, because this verse is saying we should only do what is profitable and edifying even if the rules allow other things.

4. I agree with what you say about the base standard, mostly. But if you say you can establish a base standard of all that is inappropriate, than by default you have base standard of everything that IS appropriate(barring personal discrepancy), which is what this debate is about.

5. Quoting you: "And as for us trying to use Â¡Â¥GodÂ¡Â¦s discretionÂ¡Â¦, who are we to try and decide what GodÂ¡Â¦s discretion even is. HeÂ¡Â¦s the only one who knows. Â¡Â§To try and KNOW The Lord is follyÂ¡Â¨-E. W. Wilcox. We use PERSONAL DESCRETION to decide what we THINK he wants Â¡Â¥using our conscienceÂ¡Â¦ Â¡Â¥with Christian beliefs and morals in considerationÂ¡Â¦. ThatÂ¡Â¦s all I have been saying."

Wow! Ok, first, that quote about knowing the Lord is differant from knowing his will. It is simple for us to find out his will, his "discretion," on things. It's all in the Bible. All our answers on moral issues are in that book. "Personal discretion" is wrong, and I'd almost go as far as saying it's a sin. It is at least an ignoring of God's will.

5. Quote, "YES! We have been arguing the same option *laughs* :D"

lol, oh well, we still disagree on a lot. :D

6. Remember THER IS NO MIDDLE GROUND on moral issues. ;)

~ Tess K.
1. Quote, "I listen to clean songs that are not on the most appropriate albums, and I sometimes buy relatively clean albums for a song that is not the most appropriate. I am not saying I listen to lewd nasty music, but they certainly are not edifying."

If it isn't edifying DON'T listen to it!

2. Quote, "Do I think the type of music you listen to can effect your discerment? At times, yes! Sometimes I get so upset and feel so rebellious, I go an listen to music that feeds the way I am feeling, and that does effect my judgement."

Music ALWAYS effects you, that's why we must be careful. Read Ben C.'s post.

3. Quote, "I do think it is best to listen songs that are pure and keep your mind pure, but I don't think it is a sin to listen to some secular music. "

No one on here is saying that. ;)

4. Inside jokes are great. :D May I ask who it was with? :o

~Becca

After this comment I'll post again. Though anyone may continue to debate who wants to.

~Pip

Yay, another HSB friend!

Quote, "Here's a question; with some songs, does it matter? Do you become blind to the bad stuff if you blot it out or ignore it while you're listening to it? What about a song which has some good stuff and some not so awesome content? Aren't we supposed to glean good from everything, or should we stick only and strictly to what we KNOW is free of antiChristian or blatant themes no matter if it has a bit of good in it? Are we missing out if we do this? "

If it has anything harmful in it, don't listen to it. We won't "miss out." As long as we have Christ in us we don't "miss out" from anything.

~ Ben

Is this Ben C. again? :D

I agree with everything you say!!!

~Becca

If you are listening to music you are not being distracted. And there's nothing wrong with having Christian music running in the background even if you aren't paying attention.

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May. 28, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Hey, Mister Ben. Its nice to meet you. I¡¦m glad people are starting talk to me, so thanks for the comment.

To be 100% honest, I totally agree with almost every point you made ƒº There were a few things I said in previous comments that would have answered some of your questions, but I¡¦m really glad you asked them here.

First, THANKYOU! You said exactly what I have been trying to say when I was talking about the whole ¡¥Christian music shouldn¡¦t be for entertainment¡¦ thing. I was just saying it VERY poorly I guess. In your comment you said ¡§I would be quite scared I was not at the right party with the right type of people if Jesus¡¦ music would not be appreciated at any given moment¡¨. Thank you sooo much for saying this. You said ¡¥APPRECIATED¡¦. THAT¡¦S what I have been trying to say. That God¡¦s music and glory is great as long as it is sincere and APPRECIATED. Becca also noted in the previous comment that ¡¥trying to [listen to worship music] in a distracting environment is wrong¡¦ (thanks, Becca). I guess what I meant was, don¡¦t just listen to it for the sake of something to listen to, you know, just to have music and a melody. You should APPRECIATE the lyrics and the full meaning of the song. Does that make any sense? I know I can be bad with words so I¡¦m sorry if I sound confusing. But what I meant the whole time was, YES, by all means, you should enjoy worshiping The Lord, but be sincere and appreciate it. Anyways, thanks for bringing it up and shining light on my mistake. ;D But believe me, I completely agree with you on that subject. Worship is a good, joyous and fun thing, and I shouldn¡¦t have said it was anything else.

I also agree with what you said about the Bible verse (Corinthians 10:23). You and I both are making the same point here :D In a previous comment I said ¡§God¡¦s laws are ALWAYS profitable, and ALWAYS edify.¡¨ I meant exactly what you are talking about here, but again, I am terribly unfortunate when it comes to words. You say this is referring to the Spirit of the Law. It is! That¡¦s my whole point. If you do what GOD wants, and follow His laws, as opposed to state laws written by ¡¥legalistic¡¦ Pharisees, who say one thing and do another, you will ALWAYS end up in the right place. So again I agree with you entirely.

And, yes, I do defend Wilcox¡¦s statement. Honestly, I purposely took it out of context to make a point *grins sheepishly* (hey, who¡¦s perfect?) Wilcox was referring to scientists (who were attempting to explain the many miracles through which God works *rolls eyes*) She was basically saying ¡§hey, get over it, you¡¦ll never understand, and you¡¦re just wasting your time!¡¨ Also, I defend it because I know Ella Wheeler Wilcox to be a devout Christian and an outspoken and inspirational writer. She is my favorite poet and I recommend EVERYONE check into her. My favorite poems by her are ¡§The Two Glasses¡¨, ¡§Worth While¡¨, ¡§Whatever Is, Is Best¡¨, ¡§Lifting and Leaning¡¨, ¡§Progress¡¨, and ¡§Optimism¡¨. Seriously, every Christian should read these poems. They¡¦re amazing and they help me every day. ;)

Thanks again for the comment; I hope you ask me more.

Lady Claire *winks*

P.S. Do you have a blog here?

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May. 28, 2009 - :(

Posted by Tess K

Alex,
Thanks for responding to my comment!
I realize the implications of my own actions. I do not need you to tell me something I already know. Also, when I said I did not think it was a sin to listen to secular music, I was not saying that you or anyone else said that, I was just giving my opinion. Thanks for listening, but your advice is not something I am unaware of! Oh, I am not saying that you are wrong in anything you said, but I was trying to give you an honest answer in how I feel. I am not ignorant of what would be the best path to take in listening to music that is most edifying.

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May. 28, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Alex, how can you not understand? When I say a person should use their discretion, I am not saying that they should do whatever THEY think. The ‘personal’ in ‘personal discretion’ was referring to other people. NOT GOD! I have said it over and over again. My point from the beginning was that it WAS between the Christian and God, what music he should listen to and that it didn’t matter what other PEOPLE did. Why don’t you understand that? I believe VERY strongly that God should be involved in every aspect of a person’s life. I am beginning to think you’re just trying to be difficult with me. *pouts*

I see what you mean about the whole ‘God’s discretion thing’. What I meant was strictly that we could not get inside his head and KNOW what he was talking about; that we had to use our discretion to discern what His discretion is, by LOOKING IN THE BIBLE for references. I repeat (again) “this whole debate comes down to personal discretion, with Christian beliefs and morals in consideration”. I know I have chosen my words poorly in this debate, but you have been missing the whole point when you kept focusing on them.

The point: ‘Choosing the appropriateness of music’ is a decision that must be made between a person and God. No person can say what is appropriate for another.

Now, you informed me later that you wanted me to choose one of your options as a “base standard” for the appropriateness of music and people in general. I consented and took up option #3. You had previously taken the same option. But it STILL wasn’t right! What am I supposed to say here?
I have decided you don’t really want to find an answer from me, you just want to argue. So I’m sticking to everything I’ve said, because I know what it meant. I take option #3, I think worship should be appreciated, and I think that everything you do in the “Spirit of the Law” (quoting Ben) WILL ALWAYS be profitable, and WILL ALWAYS edify. Hmmph!

Don’t worry, Alex. I’m not mad, just totally spent. You may be right or I might, but the way things are going I just don’t think we’ll ever know anytime soon. I know this was all done in the spirit of fun, and I had tons of it, so thanks. I just think this is starting to get repetitive and I don’t have the time or energy to keep saying the same things for fun, that’s all. So I hope you’re not mad at me, and I hope nobody has been offended by this whole thing.

By the way, what’s up with your punctuations? They’ve all turned into funky webbings or something. Its been driving me nuts. /: I

Becca, thanks for always sticking up for me. <3

Lady Claire

*takes a deep heavy sigh then falls over dead with exhaustion*

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May. 28, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Rebecca

Mister alex isss just wanting to debate..that web thing is annoying...Anytime...lol...they just don't get what we are saying
Becca <3

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May. 28, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

You're amazing, Becca.
Why don't you move to Texas so we can hang out?
;D JK

Lady Claire

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May. 28, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by writer4him

Okay. I'm a self-proclaimed lurker, but I just had one clarification to throw out for all you debaters. (For the record, I don't have any terribly strong feelings on the subject aside from, I guess, Philippians 4:8, which applies nicely.)

So, the question: Y'all seem to agree on the fact that "God's music and glory is great as long as it is sincere and APPRECIATED." (quoted from Lady Claire) My first thought: doesn't that make music entirely subjective, the standard being our own appreciation? What happens if a non-believer doesn't "appreciate" a song that is clearly God-honoring? Does that somehow detract from the worth of the music?

Thought #2: In the above statement, God's glory is never great "as long as." There's simply no "if" about it. It's always great.

And yeah, this discussion is technically ended. So I'll leave now. :-D

~Beth

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May. 28, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

I understand why you're confused, Miss Beth, Since you haven't been here for the whole debate. We are discussing the APPROPRIATENESS of music. And once AGAIN I used a bad choice in wording.

Yes, God's glory and music is ALWAYS great and, yes, it is still ALWAYS great when unappreciated. It SHOULD also ALWAYS be appropriate, unfortunately it's not though. So I agree with everything you said. I just have trouble putting it into words like you can.

So thanks for asking so I could clarrify.

Everyone, PLEASE try to focus on my point, not my words. ; )

Lady Claire

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May. 28, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Rebecca

~Beth
On your first thought,I don't think you can bring in something about non-believers when its about the standard for christians. But of course if is a song that is about God and a non-believer doesn't appreciate..it doesn't detract from the song because the person is not apart the body of christ.
On your second thought,God's glory is always the same never changing, he is love is wholly pure ect.(I hope I never implied otherwise) However, we are fallen. prone to distraction,fickleness, and pride. So that is why we should worship wholeheartedly. Not because Gods glory is "as long as"
Rebecca

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May. 28, 2009 - Response..... s :P

Posted by Benjc

No Problem. :)

To be 100% honest, I think you missed the point of my last post. ;) in fact, i'm not sure *I* even knew what the point of my last post was! haha! ;)

My point was, that we are being too legalistic about the whole thing. I'll go down and look at your last points specificaly, then go back to my point somewhere near the end. ok? :D

On entertainment. I believe i see where the clash is LC. You believe the one and only purpose of music is to glorify God. That it should be respected as much as prayer. This belief tends to lead to Legalism as we TRY VERY VERY EXTRA HARD to understand EXACTLY what glorifies God. You are right to an extent, but music isn't a gift from us to God. It's a gift from God to us. Hence an option that no-one has really addressed directly thus far, is that this gift from God can be used to nurture, invigorate, encourage, and sober us. Sure, it can also be used as a method of praise, I believe it is important. But again, music isn't ours, it's God's... and i think He gives it to us for our entertainment and pleasure as well. :)

That's kinda what I meant by "appreciated". There are MANY ways to appreciate a Christian song... by being encouraged, by praising God, by the cheer that it spreads (yes, even at parties)... The only thing we must watch for, and ALWAYS be VERY EXTRA CAREFUL of, is songs with bad messages.

Thank you Beth for clearing that up! Just because one person isn't appreciating a song, doesn't make it bad. if the song's bad, it's bad. If it's good, it's always. always good. There's no such thing in the Bible as musical blasphemy. :) (unless i'm wrong?)

On Corinthians 10:23:

So... maybe i missed it, can you show me where the bible says that the legalistic hypocritical pharisees created the law that this verse refers to?

I believe the law comes from God, but the point is, that even completely following the law, we can still end up being vain and empty.

:) The Spirit is the most neccesary.. because only possessing the Spirit, We fulfill the laws along the way, and end up only doing things which please the Father and are not vain and empty. :)

On Wilcox' statement:

Oh!! Good you know that you were taking that totally out of context! :D **sigh of relief!** Cuz that's the purpose of the Bible... to know God more. So... trying to know the Lord is a big part of being Christians.. :)

Oh, and no problem! Thank you for answering! lol. this is fun!! :D

Not here... it's a wordpress! here's a link if you want to check it out! :D

www.facetwoface.wordpress.com

-Ben C

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May. 28, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Turumbar

~ Tess K.
Sorry for giving unwanted advice. Actually it wasn't meant to be advice, just stating my opinion on the topic we are debating. But I'm sorry if I offended you.

~ Lady Claire
1. Quote, "I believe VERY strongly that God should be involved in every aspect of a personâ€™s life. I am beginning to think youâ€™re just trying to be difficult with me. *pouts* "

;) maybe I am, just a little. But you have to understand that your wording(Personal discretion) is very bad. It makes it sound subjective when we agree that there is a base standard. And you can ALWAYS find God's will on any moral issue in the Bible. period.

2. Quote, "I know I have chosen my words poorly in this debate, but you have been missing the whole point when you kept focusing on them."

I have understood(or at least guessed) at your meaning, but I've stuck to debating your words. Sorry, it's the debater's spirit in me. :)

3. Quote, "The point: â€˜Choosing the appropriateness of musicâ€™ is a decision that must be made between a person and God. No person can say what is appropriate for another."

Disagreed. We CAN know if something is inappropriate for another if it violates the base standard.

4. Quote, "I consented and took up option #3. You had previously taken the same option. But it STILL wasnâ€™t right! What am I supposed to say here?"

I think we agree on the base standard, it's just on other things surrounding it(implementation and implications) that we disagree on.

5. Quote, "I have decided you donâ€™t really want to find an answer from me, you just want to argue. So Iâ€™m sticking to everything Iâ€™ve said, because I know what it meant."

Not quite true. I posted this partly for the love of debate but also because this is something I'm seeking the truth about. I actually have come to some different conclusions from this debate(with your help) even if I've stuck to my old views ardently while debating(debater's tenacity, comes from to many debate rounds arguing what I don't believe :( ). There are some things that my views have changed on including this, which was the biggest deal for me: I now think that you should judge music based on the song rather than band, though I still think a bad band will produce bad songs 99.99999% of the time.

6.Quote, "By the way, whatâ€™s up with your punctuations? Theyâ€™ve all turned into funky webbings or something. Its been driving me nuts. /: I"

Get over it! :)

~ Beth

1. Agreed! subjectivity is one of the worst traps to fall into.

2. God's glory is always great but that doesn't mean all music gives God the glory.

~ Ben C.

Quote "You are right to an extent, but music isn't a gift from us to God. It's a gift from God to us. Hence an option that no-one has really addressed directly thus far, is that this gift from God can be used to nurture, invigorate, encourage, and sober us."

Good point and I agree. But this does not nullify the fact that we should only listen to God-glorying music.

To end this debate let me close with my view of the matter.
I believe as Christians we have a Biblical base standard that we should follow when listening to music. To only listen to God-glorifying music that builds us up and edifies us. This usually means only listening to God-glorifying bands, but as I've learned from the debate the band is not what we should judge the music by, but the particular song.

Thanks for debating with me you guys!

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May. 29, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Alex, I have made no secret of my lack of talent when it comes to choosing words. You know that.

There is one more thing I want you to do before I surrender completely. You said “[I] can always find God’s will on any moral issue in the Bible”. Now you were STILL missing the point of what I said but I’m going to just give up on trying to explain it. What I want you to do, is come up with some answers to the following questions, and support them with some passages from the Bible: A)When, if at all, it is appropriate to lie. And B) When it is appropriate, if at all, to take your own life. If you do and I am satisfied, then I will admit openly my mistake on the matter of KNOWING what God wants.

When I made the point “no person can say what is appropriate for another person” I wasn’t talking about your base standard. I was talking about a specific person, not people in general. I think you know this, though, and either truly disagree (which I find odd, but can accept), or you are still just trying to be difficult. Either way I don’t care, that’s what I believe and I’m not changing my mind from what you have told me; Sorry.

And as for the punctuations, you can tell me to “get over it”, but I mean it, I’ll… Well, I’ll just… I guess I’ll be forced to…I’ll just… get over it. :P *hangs head in disappointment*

Thanks for everything and all the fun. I’ve really learned a lot with this, and I hope NOBODY took ANYTHING personally especially if I said it. :I

See you, Alex!

Lady Claire

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May. 29, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

You know something Mister Ben; I think I give up with all this debate stuff. I am having zero luck communicating what I think and I’m just starting to sound ridiculous, and I also agree with you, it HAS become way too legalistic.

I just want to tell you this though; your last comment really helped me understand something about music I had never thought of before. In this discussion I have been looking at music in terms of giving glory to God. And I absolutely LOVE the point you made. “Music isn’t a gift from us to God. It’s a gift from God to us”. You’re brilliant, or at least smarter than me. I know its true and I have taken it for granted in my life, so that I totally forgot it when discussing the topic in this debate. It IS legalistic to think of music in this debate the way we have been. You should have brought that point up earlier : )

Oh, and when I made the remark about the Pharisees, I didn’t mean the Pharisees wrote the law, I meant they were legalistic about it, usually missing the point of the law in the first place. I CAN back THAT up with scripture reference. <:O

I have never noticed how poorly I choose my words until I got into this debate. I mean I always knew I was not good with them but now I see I just downright fail with them. Sorry, I really don’t mean things the way I see they’re being taken. That’s why I guess it’s best if I forfeit this round. :P

I just want everyone to know that I really DO try to be a good Christian, and that even though I am not perfect, I believe and try to follow everything the bible states, despite what you may have gathered from my badly written comments.

So enough of this debate; I don’t EVER want to talk about it again. PLEASE don’t make me. :O

Anyways, thanks for the link. But if you don’t have a blog here, then how do you know Alex? Do you live in the Great State?

Thanks for all the great questions and thanks for putting up with the confusing and pathetic answers
; )

Lady Claire

P.S. I would love to hear back from you Mister Ben, please don’t let my insanities drive you from talking to me. ;D

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May. 29, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

I my self am sick of this debate because apparently.. I don't know anything...Every thing I have said is off topic or something else. Have I even made one point..ha wow. .You guys are probably right....And sorry I couldn't surrender more lady-like
Rebecca

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May. 29, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by JoyH

Oh my, oh my. I really don't want to get in to all of this, but i have to say that i agree with Ben C. That, (quoting Ben,)
No matter what song you are listening to. No matter who is playing it, or how the way they are playing it, the music WILL affect you in SOME way.
Music speaks DIRECTLY to the heart.
OK.
~Alex,
this is most likely the most comments that you have ever gotten before! You really should think up another topic to debate on. ;)
tata!
~JoyH

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May. 29, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Don't worry, Becca. You know ,when I last talked to Alex, he said he didn't REALLY believe some of the things he was debating. He said he was just saying them so he'd have possition to take. So don't feel bad.

Lady Claire : )

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May. 30, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Mister Ben

Miss Lady Claire, I've learned quite a few things from this debate myself. THANK YOU SO MUCH for listening (er.. umm reading) and I don't think your posts were very confusing. :)

I would have brought that up earlier, except i didn't think of it until much much later. ;) I am not not not NOT NOT NOT brilliant!! :P I don't even really know how i thought of that... but i have a feeling that it wasn't really my thought... if you know what i mean. (great, now I'm being confusing again!) :-P

On Pharisees and the law:

Agreed. :)

Ok! No more debate! I think everyone learned something and that it was very beneficial... :) (and fun!)

Sooo Alex! Come on! think of another (less legalistic) topic we can discuss! lol!

No problem! I'm actually in the same speech and debate club as alex, and i've known him really well for about 2 years now. :) I live about 30 miles north-east of Austin.

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May. 30, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Thanks Mister Ben,
And you can call me Elle. (my name's not really Claire *wink*)

You know if I decide to stay homeschooled this next year, I'll be joining the same speach and debate club (and learning to choose my words more carefully I hope), so maybe I'll get to meet you! : )

I've known Alex since I was 6 (and I'll be 16 in exactly one month), and I still don't always understand him, but he can make me laugh!

~Elle

P.S. Okay, you're right, even IF what you said wasn't brilliant, it was total inspired, and you DO know what I mean. Thanks for making me think, its refreshing, Mister Ben.

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May. 31, 2009 - Untitled Comment

Posted by Anonymous

Hey, I know I hated that debate, Alex, but you should like put it in a book...or something like that! ;D

See ya

Lady Claire

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