John Eight Thirty Two
• Oct. 5, 2007 - Controversial Subject FEEDBACK
After all the comments and questions, I thought I would do a follow up post regarding 'arranged marriages'. Nothing like a bit of controversy to get some criticism and opinions flying. I admit that this concept is so foreign to today's way of thinking. It would be like meeting a living Mammoth face to face. I am also still learning, nothing is set in stone..... I appreciate you taking the time to read through what I wrote in my previous post. It is lacking in many details because actually, in this day and age this subject is not as simple as 1, 2, 3. but also because of time I did not put all my findings in there. Maybe this post will explain more.
I am copying and pasting from yesterday's comments, I have removed URL's for privacy and have modified some of the comments for brevity and for pertinence. My answers to the comments are in this colour.
Let' start with The Ruffled Feathers commenter also known as Anonymous and my accompanying comment as seen on the post.
• Oct. 4, 2007 - Untitled Comment
Posted by Anonymous
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| What are you going to do if your children REFUSE to marry who you choose? Once they turn 18 they can simply walk away from you and your dictatorship if they wish... how will you force them into a marriage if it is not one they choose to be a part of? What if they tell you that the person you chose for them isn't right for them as an individual? Do they have ANY choice or will you tie them up if you have to just so you get your way and they marry who you want them to marry? |
******* If you read carefully what I wrote above, this is ALL about choice and the daughter has EVERY right to decline a wedding proposal. I think you missed the whole point of what I was trying to say. I was describing a loving and caring environment, a Godly system, NOT a man modified one. This is not about FORCING or TYING UP, it is about submitting our Will, it is not about what we WANT. In a society where we are taught that we have RIGHTS and FREE CHOICE, we learn to make demands and throw tantrums at a young age. Along with that, consequential behaviour is no longer taught and criminals get to play 'victim'. Good is bad and bad is good. Thankfully Stephanie who commented below recognises that what happens in our home is that over all the years together a great trust and bond is formed between us and our children. This is not a dictatorship. *******
Why is that when people want to be nasty they comment anonymously? Is it that they have a 'right' to do that and then also a 'right' to avoid the consequences? I was always told that you can respectfully disagree. I'm not sure anyone has the 'right' to slander...
If I raised my daughter with these kinds of 'rights' and to think that she could do what she wants, have what she wants, say what she wants and all this when she wants, I would also want to have her out of the home very speedily, and if she still even believes that marriage is something sacred and beautiful she could choose from all her options someone who would put up with all her nonsense. Living with indulged children who have been raised knowing their 'rights' could be exhausting I think. Ugh, let me not climb onto that soapbox....
It is your particular society that says 18 is the magic number. It's the same society that says that after a child is 5, its parents are unable to provide for all the child's needs so they must go and learn in an institution run by experts and learn from its peers what is socially acceptable.
Posted by CrossView
If I remember correctly, the brides of arranged marriages were as young as 12 or 13. Do you also think that's a "good age" to marry?
With regards to marriage, specific ages were not important in Biblical times. Physical signs were! I met my dear husband when I was 17. We both agree that we should have got married then and there. We both knew what Covenant was about. We dragged the betrothal time out for 3 and a half years because that was a more socially acceptable age to get married. I was nearly 21, I still needed my parent's to sign me over  The only reason marriages don't work is because of the hardness of hearts, not because of age or lack thereof. In this day and age, no, children that age are not ready. I think I mentioned that in yesterday's blog. Our focus has stopped being on raising our children for marriage and concentrated on them being able to 'make it' in the world.
The Biblical pattern of submission shows a transference from Father to Husband, the age is not emphasised but the words used are 'young' and 'youth'. Independence is a product of rebellion. The Biblical pattern shows submission, accountability and reliance on one another.
• Oct. 4, 2007 - Untitled CommentHi GAMama.  I am breaking your comment up so that I can answer each subject separately.
Posted by GAMama
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| Although I do not believe it is beneficial for children to date, I do believe they need to be shown how to make good decisions so that they will know how to choose a spouse. I refuse to do everything for them, I will teach them to do it for themselves. I expect to have such a good relationship with them that they will value my opinion regarding their choice. |
I have questions here. What would this 'look like'? If they don't date, how do they choose? Where would the options come from? If you didn't approve of their choice, what would that look like?
I believe that regardless of how they get to having a spouse, ultimately the most important thing would be that they are both well trained and equipped to being spouses and know that it is a Covenant and they can not divorce. They would also need much support from both their families. Please understand that I am not talking about interference and meddling.
Posted by GAMama
Consider this also, polygamy was acceptable and expected in ancient times (re:Leah and Rachel plus their handmaidens to Jacob). Is this acceptable to you now?
Yes, polygamy was acceptable, practiced and expected after Eden. But from the beginning this was not in God's perfect plan. Already in Exodus 21:10 and Deuteronomy 21:15 there were rules about what to do with more than one wife, obviously it can get ugly with more than one 'one flesh' couple in a house. I see that Isaac and Rebecca had a great arranged marriage.... the met on the day they married and he loved her. They had issues but admittedly but this is because they are human, not because they didn't date. Yes, look at Jacob and his 4 women, what a mess. Also Abraham and his 2 women (and later a 3rd). Polygamy happens here where we live. It makes for very unhappy women I can tell you.
Spiritually speaking though, as long as a woman was married to a man, it was not classed as adulterous. He could have a few wives and it was not considered adultery. You will remember that King David, even though he disobeyed the rule about Kings only having one wife, was still a man after God's own heart and was only punished for committing adultery. His disobedience led to much heartache though and his son who was the wisest man who ever lived also didn't have enough common sense to stick with one wife.
Is this acceptable to me now? NO! I am quite generous but there are some things I will not share! Besides, 1 Timothy 3, 1 Timothy 5 and Titus 1:6 clearly state that to be considered for leadership, a man must have only one wife. Thankfully, my husband wants to keep his house in order and he is satisfied and fulfilled with the wife he already has!  The spiritual principle I see though is that we as the bride are plural, yet there is only one Bridegroom. As the Bride we can not be unfaithful ....
Posted by GAMama
Also, love has a lot to do with it, Jacob loved Rachel so much that he was forced to work for 14 years (if my memory serves me right) and take another bride before the one he truly loved and wanted. I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on that.
What I see with Jacob is a classic case of what NOT to do. It is also a great example of God using a situation for His good. Jacob was in serious trouble back home, he was running for his life. He came to his uncle's place and caught the eye of Rachel. As usual, Jacob messed up. He had no business even getting involved with her without her father giving her to him. She was hardly innocent in the matter either.... her eyes should not have been catching those of a man that was not her husband.... Also, her older sister was not married. She knew that her sister had to get married first. That was the order of things. Nevertheless, what happened happened. Jacob knew he wanted her and suggested the payment. He was willing to work for seven years for her. Of course he was tricked and had to wait till after the wedding feast of Leah's before he could have Rachel and then he worked for a further seven years for her. Yes, the scriptures say that he loved Rachel but it didn't stop him having intimate relations with the others... So, what is love??
Posted by GAMama
if I'm not mistaken, arranged marriage is forcing a certain person for marriage. It would be like saying to your children "OK you want to get married? We have already picked someone out for you, here he/she is!" What if your child (which by this time would be an adult) said they already had someone else in mind?
The way I see it is that the relationship with my children will be one of complete trust. There would be no force involved. You know how little girls are. They need no encouragement when it comes to thinking about their futures. They can't wait to be brides and wives and Mommies. When they play it is all about playing house and "mommy". If I already know who my daughter is going to marry, when she asks, I can already tell her. Let's say that it will be a young man I'll call David. We have a good relationship with his parents, we can see that they are training him to be a good husband, they like that we are raising our daughter to be a good wife. We mutually believe in what marriage/covenant is and prayerfully consider all the options. Then we agree that our two children would be a suitable match for each other. Our daughter and David would be each other's, for the future. **They would not be unequally yoked, they would not have memories of previous partners or crushes, they would always know that they already belonged to someone and their thoughts would be directed to that someone. When my daughter had these 'crush feelings' they could be directed towards David. That to me is keeping her thoughts pure. I know of a few families that encourage their children to pray for FW and FH (future wife and future husband) and even write letters to them. They are male and female. They have the capacity to love and be spouses, it is important to direct it in the right way from a young age. I don't see force involved and I don't see the need or opportunity for other options in a situation where they already know.......
**If once they are older and of marrying age and realise that they really don't like each other and they could not be a wife or a husband to each other, we would never pressure them to marry. Ultimately, it is a heart condition.
Posted by GAMama
What if your child came to you and asked you "What will I be when I grow up?" Would you have an answer for them?
This sounds a bit like Que Serah Serah sung by Doris Day. My children do ask me all the time. They even ask me what *I* want to be when I grow up ..... I'm not sure what direction you are leaning towards in your question. Is it because one can only be completely sure of the direction one's profession will take when one is older? I do not put as much importance on profession as I do a marriage partner. But at the same time, in those days, male children generally followed the trade of their father. Girls learned from their mothers. I see it in the communities here where we live, trades run in families.
Posted by srostollan
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| There are years of love and trust and communication that is built. Regardless of whether we choose to follow courtship, betrothal or arranged marriages, all of these are seen as "radical" and all must be approached as a life choice. |
Yes, I totally agree.
Posted by ELF One of the things I think makes this impossible or at the very least difficult to do in this day and age for us westerners is the simple fact that people move around so much.
Yes, this is true. This system worked really well in communities that were not nearly as transient as now. Whatever happened in walled cities was decided and agreed upon at the city gates. The very issue of Boaz and Ruth's marriage for example was decided there.
Posted by ELF
They want to "allow the kids to move on". I think that's just an easy way for them to allow themselves to be "off the hook", so to speak.
I'm not sure that it is a conscious decision or thought. The culture has taught us not to be so strict on our children and not to be legalistic. Remember that the way we do things has been shaped and formed in the last 200 years. It took time to get to the place where children chose for themselves and parents had to accept it. So many parents are bitterly unhappy with the choices their children made.
Posted by ELF
I was told that the reason a groom paid a dowry for his bride was to "get her off of her parent's hands". I've heard that she was considered a liability and not an asset. I've been told this since I came back to Christ almost 20 yrs. ago!
I'm not sure where this misconception comes in. Maybe feminism perpetuated the lie? Feminism in the Body of Christ is rife. Women were of much value in those times, to have more than one was equated with status. The more you paid for her, the better she was. The New Testament especially showed women in a very favourable way. In the society here where we live, a woman is of much importance and worth. Parents can ask a LOT because she is such an asset to the groom's family and such a loss to the bride's family.
Here ends the commentary on the comments......
Ultimately, our culture is so way different than it was back then. The condition of the human heart has not changed. So, do I just go with the flow and conform to the patterns of this world? Or do I be transformed......Since then you have been raised with Christ, set you mind on things above not on earthly things; where Christ is seated at the right hand of God! Colossians chapter 3.
Even though I do see spiritual principles in the whole arranged marriage issue, it is not a 'doctrine' I am preaching. I am not telling any of you what to do. This has been a really interesting discussion. Thank you.
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• Oct. 5, 2007 - Untitled Comment
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer and share your thoughts!
Personally, I love different ideas since it opens up so much for thought and prayer...