Okay. I've been wanting to have a debate... for some time... just 'cause I haven't had any good ones in youth group in quite a while.
My months of waiting were paid off tonight.
We were discussing the Lord's Prayer, and got to the part about "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." [And I am summarizing the following conversation.]
Mr. K: "So, do we have to forgive all people?"
Matt: "I don't know if we have to forgive them if they don't apologize."
Mr. K: "But you're saying forgive us as we forgive others so that would be saying for God NOT to forgive us!"
me: "Uh actually, I think that I read something on that point... about how you must forgive people who ask for it but even if you didn't forgive people who DIDN'T ask for it, you could still ask God to forgive you as you forgive others since... you'd... be asking for forgiveness. If that makes sense."
Mr. K: "Uh... yeah... I think I follow that..."
(I did clarify later that I WAS NOT saying that I think that is a good idea; it's a rotten idea and a stinky, un-Christian attitude to walk around saying "Well, I don't have to forgive them, they haven't apologized." I was solely introducing another idea to clarify Matt's point.)
Then somehow we got onto if God forgives sins before we ask... and if Jesus' death atoned for all sins or only our past sins, and if so thus our salvation DEPENDS UPON our repentance.
Well. I brought up Martin Luther and how he struggled with this issue until he found that we are saved BY FAITH THROUGH GRACE. That our salvation cannot depend upon anything in ourselves, even our repentance!
Antion and I at this point were sitting there with immense grins on our faces.
Mr. K: "I can see two people up here just biting their tongues -- this is a Calvinist-Arminean debate..."
Antion and I: "NO! NO! This is a Roman Catholic - Protestant debate!"
Brittney: "Oh my goodness, they AGREE on something!"
Antion or Mr. K, don't remember who: "Well, I'm sure that one side is more Arminean and one's more Calvinistic."
me: ^_^ "That is, one is more right!" =P (I discussed with Antion afterwards how one does point more to assurance of salvation, which is a more Calvinistic/Reformed view.)
And then our resident Roman-Catholic-in-a-Protestant-youth-group, Paul, kicked in the Roman Catholic view of confessions.
It was fun.
And I have left out tons of what went on... I'm not sure that I succeeded at ALL in explaining why it was fun... but it was.
Then, immediately after class, Samwise came over with the verses from Hebrews 6: 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
He wanted to know, I think, how this fits in with assurance of salvation!
The discussion didn't go much of anywhere, as was pretty obvious when I said, "Well okay, you know about the visible and invisible church..."
Jenn: "AHHH! Theology 101... I'm walking away!"
Sam: "What?"
me: *sigh*
We had a fun-ish quiz practice, too... I think I'm ok for Saturday. Antion probably is too, as between us we came up with almost every answer.
Pastor B: "Everyone take a deep breath."
*we do so*
Antion: *doesn't breathe out*
me: *automatic reflex, I knew he would do that* WHACK!
Antion: *breathes out*
Andrew richly deserved the shoe which I threw at him in the middle of practice.
Sam: *meaning to say women* "Wemen."
Antion: "May I have some wemen with my water?"
Andrew: "I wuve wemen."
me: *slides shoe off* *hurls it at him*
It gave a most satisfying smack.
And he was NOT hurt. He sat there laughing his head off.
Oh, I think I figured out why guys are not so bright sometimes. My science book says that the average male burns less energy in one day than a lightbulb which is on for TWO SECONDS!!!
And the last story... as we came out of the church Antion was being courteous and holding the door for us (!). I had on my cloak.
*it was a dark and stormy (and windy) night*
*cloak blows impressively*
Antion: *stares*
me: *goes to hit him* "Stop staring!!!"
Antion: *rather uncertainly* "I like your... Elven-cloak?"
me: "Good job. You used the right words." *grins at him*
He has an incredible capability of pulling out the one thing that I want to hear (in this case, Elven and cloak.) without any hints.
Of course, sometimes his life depends on it, so I guess it is a skill worth honing. =)
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