Oct. 31, 2006
Faith Alone
Sola Fide was the cry of Martin Luther and the protestant reformers. On today, the anniversary of Luther’s posting his 95 theses, I want to address the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, one of the 2 pillars of the Reformation.
A common misconception about the Catholic Church is that it teaches that we are saved by our works alone. This is false. The Church teaches that faith and works are inseparable…we are not saved by one or the other.
Ephesians 2:8-9 ~ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
James 2:24 ~ Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
It almost seems like at first glance, those two scriptures contradict each other. But, notice that neither of them say that we are saved by either faith alone or works alone. The word “alone” isn’t even mentioned (except in the last phrase of the passage in James, “not by faith only”).
James 2:14 ~ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man may say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
verse 17 ~ Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
verse 20 ~ But wilt though know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
verse 21 ~ Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
verse 25 ~ Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
verse 26 ~ For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Is it any wonder that Martin Luther called James “a book of straw”?
Revelation 20:13 ~ And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and earth and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Philippians 2:12 ~ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
1 Corinthians 13:2 ~ And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
The problem with the phrase faith alone is not the word faith…it’s alone. Faith is important, without it we cannot get to heaven. Similarly, without works we cannot get to heaven. The two go hand in hand.
The important thing to remember, though, is that we are saved by grace (as it says in Ephesians 2:8). Ultimately, the thing that saves us is Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. We can have the greatest faith and be the holiest person on earth, but without Jesus, we are nothing.
Pax Christi,
~the Catholic apologist
• Post A Comment!
Posted by pcboy
Posted by briannash
Posted by rebecca
Thanks for reading my post yesterday. I read yours, too.
I have to tell you that even though I write Bible studies, I don't consider myself to be a theologian! But I love the Word of God and I love my Lord.
I believe that we are saved by faith alone, not of works, lest any man should boast. Works are a natural outpouring of our faith, however, and I think that is what James is saying over and over in his epistle, which I love. I've read that book so many times that I've lost count! Yes, the faith and works go together, but I do not believe that they are equivalent, and I never will. That cheapens the sacrifice of my Lord.
Thanks for dropping by my blog. I hope you make a lot of friends here at HSB!
Posted by thecatholicapologist
Posted by thecatholicapologist
Posted by Claire
Posted by arwengirl
Posted by arwengirl
Posted by briannash
Posted by thecatholicapologist
Posted by briannash
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Comments
Nov. 1, 2006 - Nice!
Posted by pcboy Hey, Nice blog! I'll comment later. I'm busy right now!
Nov. 1, 2006 - Untitled Comment
Posted by briannash On my blog you asked why I believed that the Roman Catholic church believes in works Righteousness, the simple answer is that because it does, it is part of the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. Your Catholic Apologist has it only partially right, waith and works are related but they are not equal, faith alone is what saves you but because you have faith you will do good works.
What James says is not that you need works for salvation and that your works are evidence of your faith, simply stated if you have faith you will do good works, he doesn't say because you do good works you are saved, if you believe that then what is the point of faith.
I grew up Catholic I used to go to mass every day while in University, I read the book of Romans and I was awakened to the truth.
Here is some examples where the Catholic church denies Faith by Grace alone:
From the council of Trent:
"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).
"If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).
From the more recent 2nd Vatican Council
"For it is the liturgy through which, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, 'the work of our redemption is accomplished,' and it is through the liturgy, especially, that the faithful are enabled to express in their lives and manifest to others the mystery of Christ and the real nature of the true Church" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Introduction, para. 2).
"As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which 'Christ our Pasch is sacrificed' (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 1, 3, p. 324).
"... [Christ] also willed that the work of salvation which they preached should be set in train through the sacrifice and sacraments, around which the entire liturgical [ritualistic] life revolves. Thus by Baptism men are grafted into the paschal mystery of Christ. ... They receive the spirit of adoption as sons" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Chap. 1, I, 5,6, pp. 23-24).
"From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners, particularly the works which human weakness finds hard. Because the sufferings of the martyrs for the faith and for God's law were thought to be very valuable, penitents used to turn to the martyrs to be helped by their merits to obtain a more speedy reconciliation from the bishops. Indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, chap. 3, 6, pp. 78,79).
Christ died for the remission of sins if you need all the other things (there are many more than I addressed above) that the Roman Church say then his death and resurection mean nothing.
Now I have no doubt that there are some Christians in the Roman Church but they would be best to do as I did and get out, because you can not grow as a Christian under such false teachings
What James says is not that you need works for salvation and that your works are evidence of your faith, simply stated if you have faith you will do good works, he doesn't say because you do good works you are saved, if you believe that then what is the point of faith.
I grew up Catholic I used to go to mass every day while in University, I read the book of Romans and I was awakened to the truth.
Here is some examples where the Catholic church denies Faith by Grace alone:
From the council of Trent:
"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).
"If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).
From the more recent 2nd Vatican Council
"For it is the liturgy through which, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, 'the work of our redemption is accomplished,' and it is through the liturgy, especially, that the faithful are enabled to express in their lives and manifest to others the mystery of Christ and the real nature of the true Church" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Introduction, para. 2).
"As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which 'Christ our Pasch is sacrificed' (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 1, 3, p. 324).
"... [Christ] also willed that the work of salvation which they preached should be set in train through the sacrifice and sacraments, around which the entire liturgical [ritualistic] life revolves. Thus by Baptism men are grafted into the paschal mystery of Christ. ... They receive the spirit of adoption as sons" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Chap. 1, I, 5,6, pp. 23-24).
"From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners, particularly the works which human weakness finds hard. Because the sufferings of the martyrs for the faith and for God's law were thought to be very valuable, penitents used to turn to the martyrs to be helped by their merits to obtain a more speedy reconciliation from the bishops. Indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, chap. 3, 6, pp. 78,79).
Christ died for the remission of sins if you need all the other things (there are many more than I addressed above) that the Roman Church say then his death and resurection mean nothing.
Now I have no doubt that there are some Christians in the Roman Church but they would be best to do as I did and get out, because you can not grow as a Christian under such false teachings
Nov. 1, 2006 - Hi!
Posted by rebecca Thanks for reading my post yesterday. I read yours, too.
I have to tell you that even though I write Bible studies, I don't consider myself to be a theologian! But I love the Word of God and I love my Lord.
I believe that we are saved by faith alone, not of works, lest any man should boast. Works are a natural outpouring of our faith, however, and I think that is what James is saying over and over in his epistle, which I love. I've read that book so many times that I've lost count! Yes, the faith and works go together, but I do not believe that they are equivalent, and I never will. That cheapens the sacrifice of my Lord.
Thanks for dropping by my blog. I hope you make a lot of friends here at HSB!
Nov. 1, 2006 - In answer to briannash's comment
Posted by thecatholicapologist Mr. Nash,
Thank you so much for replying to my question! I truly appreciate you taking the time.
briannash: Your Catholic Apologist has it only partially right, waith and works are related but they are not equal, faith alone is what saves you but because you have faith you will do good works.
If good works are a result of faith, why do you stress the doctrine of faith alone? You yourself just stated that faith and works go together. If they go together, that sort of defeats the purpose of the word alone, doesn't it? (Oh, and btw, I am the Catholic apologist if you didn't know :)
briannash: What James says is not that you need works for salvation
James 2:24 ~ Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
briannash:...simply stated if you have faith you will do good works
Like I said earlier, if good works are the result of faith, what's the point of the doctrine faith alone? If they go together, why do you not need good works?
briannash:...he doesn't say because you do good works you are saved, if you believe that then what is the point of faith.
I agree with you here. We are not saved by our works only...there’s no way that we can earn our salvation. That't where faith in Jesus Christ comes in. Martin Luther stated that he could commit adultery a hundred times a day and still go to heaven (because of his faith). What's the point of faith if you don’t have works? Similarly, what's the point of works if you don't have faith?
briannash: I grew up Catholic I used to go to mass every day while in University, I read the book of Romans and I was awakened to the truth.
I would appreciate it if you would share some verses in Romans to illustrate what you are talking about. :)
briannash: Here is some examples where the Catholic church denies Faith by Grace alone:
From the council of Trent:
"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).
This statement defies the belief that “it is confidence alone that justifies us”. What is confidence? Faith.
briannash: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).
Philippians 2:12 ~ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye always have obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work our your salvation with fear and trembling.
briannash: From the more recent 2nd Vatican Council
"For it is the liturgy through which, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, 'the work of our redemption is accomplished,' and it is through the liturgy, especially, that the faithful are enabled to express in their lives and manifest to others the mystery of Christ and the real nature of the true Church" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Introduction, para. 2).
How does this deny the doctrine of faith by grace? The liturgy is a reflection of Christ’s divine sacrifice…His gift of salvation to us.
briannash: "As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which 'Christ our Pasch is sacrificed' (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 1, 3, p. 324).
That is the work of our redemption…Jesus sacrifice on the cross.
briannash: "... [Christ] also willed that the work of salvation which they preached should be set in train through the sacrifice and sacraments, around which the entire liturgical [ritualistic] life revolves. Thus by Baptism men are grafted into the paschal mystery of Christ. ... They receive the spirit of adoption as sons" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Chap. 1, I, 5,6, pp. 23-24).
Like I said before…the liturgy is a reflection of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, which is the work of our redemption.
briannash: "From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners, particularly the works which human weakness finds hard. Because the sufferings of the martyrs for the faith and for God's law were thought to be very valuable, penitents used to turn to the martyrs to be helped by their merits to obtain a more speedy reconciliation from the bishops. Indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, chap. 3, 6, pp. 78,79).
Notice in that last sentence that it doesn’t say “the penitent was washed, cleansed, and redeemed by the works of the entire Christian people”…it says “by the HELP of the entire Christian people”. Is prayer and fasting something that is good for us to do as Christians? Why do we give up food? What good is it doing to sacrifice our own comforts? We can offer sacrifices up to God in prayer on behalf of our friends, just as Jesus gave up His comforts for us.
briannash: Christ died for the remission of sins if you need all the other things (there are many more than I addressed above) that the Roman Church say then his death and resurection mean nothing.
Yes, Christ died for the remission of sins. He wants us to follow in His footsteps and be “perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect”. Obviously, with our weakened nature, it’s impossible for us to be perfect. But, in Christ, He gradually perfects (through His passion) so that we can enter Heaven and live in joy with Him forever. Without Christ, salvation is IMPOSSIBLE. As for "all the other things" (I assume you are talking about good works), they are there to help us grow closer to Christ, not distract us from Him.
Now I have no doubt that there are some Christians in the Roman Church
I think that a question that should be asked is, “can faithful Catholics be Christians?” Mother Teresa was a faithful Catholic. Either she was a Christian or not...there’s no in between. If what you believe is true, Mr. Nash, then she could not have been a Christian because she worshipped “a piece of bread” (which she believed to be the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ). Either you call that idolatry, or you accept her belief that the bread is truly Christ.
briannash: ...but they would be best to do as I did and get out, because you can not grow as a Christian under such false teachings
If I believe that I need to offer up good works to Christ, how is that going to negatively affect my walk as a Christian? Is it a bad thing for me to offer up good works? I’m not bound to works in any way; I’m set free through Jesus Christ to become perfect in Him (how He really created me to be).
Thank you again! God bless!
~the Catholic apologist
Thank you so much for replying to my question! I truly appreciate you taking the time.
briannash: Your Catholic Apologist has it only partially right, waith and works are related but they are not equal, faith alone is what saves you but because you have faith you will do good works.
If good works are a result of faith, why do you stress the doctrine of faith alone? You yourself just stated that faith and works go together. If they go together, that sort of defeats the purpose of the word alone, doesn't it? (Oh, and btw, I am the Catholic apologist if you didn't know :)
briannash: What James says is not that you need works for salvation
James 2:24 ~ Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
briannash:...simply stated if you have faith you will do good works
Like I said earlier, if good works are the result of faith, what's the point of the doctrine faith alone? If they go together, why do you not need good works?
briannash:...he doesn't say because you do good works you are saved, if you believe that then what is the point of faith.
I agree with you here. We are not saved by our works only...there’s no way that we can earn our salvation. That't where faith in Jesus Christ comes in. Martin Luther stated that he could commit adultery a hundred times a day and still go to heaven (because of his faith). What's the point of faith if you don’t have works? Similarly, what's the point of works if you don't have faith?
briannash: I grew up Catholic I used to go to mass every day while in University, I read the book of Romans and I was awakened to the truth.
I would appreciate it if you would share some verses in Romans to illustrate what you are talking about. :)
briannash: Here is some examples where the Catholic church denies Faith by Grace alone:
From the council of Trent:
"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).
This statement defies the belief that “it is confidence alone that justifies us”. What is confidence? Faith.
briannash: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).
Philippians 2:12 ~ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye always have obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work our your salvation with fear and trembling.
briannash: From the more recent 2nd Vatican Council
"For it is the liturgy through which, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, 'the work of our redemption is accomplished,' and it is through the liturgy, especially, that the faithful are enabled to express in their lives and manifest to others the mystery of Christ and the real nature of the true Church" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Introduction, para. 2).
How does this deny the doctrine of faith by grace? The liturgy is a reflection of Christ’s divine sacrifice…His gift of salvation to us.
briannash: "As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which 'Christ our Pasch is sacrificed' (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 1, 3, p. 324).
That is the work of our redemption…Jesus sacrifice on the cross.
briannash: "... [Christ] also willed that the work of salvation which they preached should be set in train through the sacrifice and sacraments, around which the entire liturgical [ritualistic] life revolves. Thus by Baptism men are grafted into the paschal mystery of Christ. ... They receive the spirit of adoption as sons" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Chap. 1, I, 5,6, pp. 23-24).
Like I said before…the liturgy is a reflection of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, which is the work of our redemption.
briannash: "From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners, particularly the works which human weakness finds hard. Because the sufferings of the martyrs for the faith and for God's law were thought to be very valuable, penitents used to turn to the martyrs to be helped by their merits to obtain a more speedy reconciliation from the bishops. Indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, chap. 3, 6, pp. 78,79).
Notice in that last sentence that it doesn’t say “the penitent was washed, cleansed, and redeemed by the works of the entire Christian people”…it says “by the HELP of the entire Christian people”. Is prayer and fasting something that is good for us to do as Christians? Why do we give up food? What good is it doing to sacrifice our own comforts? We can offer sacrifices up to God in prayer on behalf of our friends, just as Jesus gave up His comforts for us.
briannash: Christ died for the remission of sins if you need all the other things (there are many more than I addressed above) that the Roman Church say then his death and resurection mean nothing.
Yes, Christ died for the remission of sins. He wants us to follow in His footsteps and be “perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect”. Obviously, with our weakened nature, it’s impossible for us to be perfect. But, in Christ, He gradually perfects (through His passion) so that we can enter Heaven and live in joy with Him forever. Without Christ, salvation is IMPOSSIBLE. As for "all the other things" (I assume you are talking about good works), they are there to help us grow closer to Christ, not distract us from Him.
Now I have no doubt that there are some Christians in the Roman Church
I think that a question that should be asked is, “can faithful Catholics be Christians?” Mother Teresa was a faithful Catholic. Either she was a Christian or not...there’s no in between. If what you believe is true, Mr. Nash, then she could not have been a Christian because she worshipped “a piece of bread” (which she believed to be the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ). Either you call that idolatry, or you accept her belief that the bread is truly Christ.
briannash: ...but they would be best to do as I did and get out, because you can not grow as a Christian under such false teachings
If I believe that I need to offer up good works to Christ, how is that going to negatively affect my walk as a Christian? Is it a bad thing for me to offer up good works? I’m not bound to works in any way; I’m set free through Jesus Christ to become perfect in Him (how He really created me to be).
Thank you again! God bless!
~the Catholic apologist
Nov. 1, 2006 - To Rebecca:
Posted by thecatholicapologist Rebecca,
Thank you for stopping by and leaving a comment! :)
I want to clear up the fact that I never said that faith and works are equivalent…I merely said that they are inseparable. As a Catholic, I believe that we cannot get to heaven by works alone in the same way that we cannot get to heaven by faith alone. The reason that I wrote this post is because there are so many people who have misconceptions about what the Catholic Church teaches on this issue.
I wanted to tell you also that I think you’re a wonderful writer! Writing is something that I love and I want to improve at…that’s why I really enjoy blogging! :)
God bless!
~the Catholic apologist
Thank you for stopping by and leaving a comment! :)
I want to clear up the fact that I never said that faith and works are equivalent…I merely said that they are inseparable. As a Catholic, I believe that we cannot get to heaven by works alone in the same way that we cannot get to heaven by faith alone. The reason that I wrote this post is because there are so many people who have misconceptions about what the Catholic Church teaches on this issue.
I wanted to tell you also that I think you’re a wonderful writer! Writing is something that I love and I want to improve at…that’s why I really enjoy blogging! :)
God bless!
~the Catholic apologist
Nov. 1, 2006 - Well done
Posted by Claire Very well-expressed post, Sylvia. I also wanted to add that Jesus' teaching in Matthew 7:21 bears significant weight against the "Sola Fide" doctrine:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Just calling Him Lord [believing] isn't enough -- we must also DO the will of His Father!
Peace,
Claire
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Just calling Him Lord [believing] isn't enough -- we must also DO the will of His Father!
Peace,
Claire
Nov. 2, 2006 - Hello!
Posted by arwengirl Hey! Like your other blog- I love this one as well! We do have alot of things in common!! That's awesome. Me and my Family became Catholic about- 12 years ago! Wow! It doesn't seem that long ago! But yes, My Baptism Aniversary is October 2nd, which is the Feast of the Guardian Angels! :D
It's nice to have a friend on here who is Catholic!!!!! :D
Well, g2g!
BYE!
_arwengirl
It's nice to have a friend on here who is Catholic!!!!! :D
Well, g2g!
BYE!
_arwengirl
Nov. 2, 2006 - Also,
Posted by arwengirl After I posted my comment- I read the other comments you've recieved. And you seem very smart and have a good hold on your Faith- Our Faith, the Catholic Church, and I saw where you got a comment on someone who left the Church, which is very sad indeed and suggested that you leave. But, please, don't let ANYONE shake your Faith- ever. Anyways, I'm sure your not going to let that happen :) I'm just a worry-wort. :P
Love your sister in Christ
_arwengirl
Love your sister in Christ
_arwengirl
Nov. 5, 2006 - Untitled Comment
Posted by briannash You have many interesting points unfortuntately they are tainted by a point of view that is contradictory to the Bible,
So I thought I woudl start with your last point because it is most pressing and is what of greatest concern to me as a Christian.
You said:"If I believe that I need to offer up good works to Christ, how is that going to negatively affect my walk as a Christian? Is it a bad thing for me to offer up good works? I’m not bound to works in any way; I’m set free through Jesus Christ to become perfect in Him (how He really created me to be). "
Good works are never a bad thing but relying upon them saying you need to offer them up is contradictory to having faith, if you have faith you will not need to do anything, in fact nothing you could do would merit favour with the Lord
As i said reading Romans convicted me about leaving the Roman "Church" because I saw many of the things that Paul was writing about applying to the Roman "Church"
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
The Roman "Church" denies Justification by faith alone as you testified you believe you need to do Good works to be justified, I believe that nothing I do or any others (otehr than Christ's dying for me) can get me into Heaven not now not ever no matter how many candles might be lit for me after I die, no matter how many Masses the Roman "Church" gets paid for to have in my name after my death, no matter how many times I pray to any Saint, even the ones I believe to be in heaven.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.
Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.
Rom 1:21 Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools
I believe that the Roman "Church" was part of the true Church but seperated from that body, they have the knowledge that God has given them in the Bible but they withold the truth in favour of Traditions of Men.
Rom 1:25 For they changed the truth of God into a lie, and they worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 3:21 But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets;
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ, toward all and upon all those who believe. For there is no difference,
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 for the display of His righteousness at this time, for Him to be just and, forgiving the one being of the faith of Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then where is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.
These are words Paul wrote about the Original Covenant people of the old Testament and how they fell away, how many lost the faith and trusted in their works. They lost sight of what the Bible was testifying of and boasted in what they had done.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that our father Abraham has found, according to flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."
Rom 4:4 But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 saying, "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 blessed is the man to whom the Lord will in no way impute sin."
Rom 4:9 Is this blessedness then on the circumcision only, or on the uncircumcision also? For we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it reckoned? Being in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received a sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith while still uncircumcised; so that he might be the father of all those believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be imputed to them also;
Rom 4:12 and a father of circumcision to those not of the circumcision only, but also to those walking by the steps of the faith of our father Abraham during uncircumcision.
Rom 4:13 For the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Much like Circumscision or anything else Abraham did could save him only faith, no work, baptism, or other sacrament (whether the Lord's supper or those not ordained by God but rather made up by Men) can save me. Pouring Oil on my head or confessing my sin to another mortal on my death bed will save me, only faith in the one who died for my sin can save me.
Read all of Roman's 5 it's just a glorious chapter of the Bible that tells of what faith can do for us.
In fact read the rest of Roman's and see in it that Paul talks about the vain traditions of men who relied upon thier own works thier own good and what end that brings and about Glorious salvation that waits for those who have faith and only rely upon it.
Your Question about Mother Theresa is a Good one, I do not believe she was a Christian, nor do I believe that any Pope has been a Christian since at least Gregory the 7th. You were right she was an idoltarer since she worshiped something that was man created as God, and since she did not trust in Christ alone she lacked the faith required for salvation.
Now I have no doubt that she was a Good person, as were many of the Popes but being a good person is not enough to get you into heaven, giving to the poor, is not enough, having the Roman "Church" canonize you is not enough to get you into heaven, (a large number of the Canonized "Saints" had thier "Saint" hood purchased)
The Bible in Both the Old Testament and the New rest the Salvation of the people of God on Faith nothing else, and those who trust in anything else they are lost.
Like I said, I will not argue that Mother Theresa was a good person, so was Ghandi, so is the Dahli Lama, being a "good person" is not what gets you into heaven.
The Roman "Church" does great works of morality, just look at thier stands on abortion and same sex marriage. But the Pharisees were the great moral leaders in Jesus' time and what di Jesus say about them and what did he say about where there teaching would lead thier followers.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
He knew that thier Rigteousness which was really a selfrighteousness coudl merit no favour.
Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"
Mat 9:12 But when he heard it, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."
He said that since they did all these great works they didn't need him, because he was sent to the earth for those who needed a Saviour. Much like if there is anything I can do or anything the Roman "Church" can do for me I don't need Jesus to save me.
Mat 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.
But teaching such false doctrine as works based salvation or as you like to see it works and faith based salvation the Roman "Church" is conspiring to destroy the Gospel of Christ.
Mat 15:1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Mat 15:2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat."
After leaving the Roman "Church" I was asked a similar question by a friedn who wanted to why I forsook all the traditions and doctrine of the Roman "Church". In fact some in my family ask the same thing of me, my answer is similar to Christ's response:
Mat 15:3 He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
The First commanment is:
Deu 5:7 "'You shall have no other gods before me.
The Second is:
Deu 5:8 "'You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Deu 5:9 You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Deu 5:10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
God wants your undvided attention he wanst you to trust in him alone, he is the only God he's not a 50%, 60% 70%, 80%, 90% or even 99% God he is 100% God he is all I need I can't rely on anything else, I can not make an idol of my own works, I can not make an Idol out of the vain traditions of men, God is Jealous he wants all my attention and all my faith.
And quite frankly he would not be God if he didn't, he is all Sufficent, if I can do anything to get myself into heaven aside from trusting in him, what would I need him for?
But alas I am a weak creature relying completely upon my creator so I need him and nothing else. So because I have faith and he has saved me i will do Good works, not to gain any merit because I can't, but as an act of Thanksgiving to the God who made me.
So I thought I woudl start with your last point because it is most pressing and is what of greatest concern to me as a Christian.
You said:"If I believe that I need to offer up good works to Christ, how is that going to negatively affect my walk as a Christian? Is it a bad thing for me to offer up good works? I’m not bound to works in any way; I’m set free through Jesus Christ to become perfect in Him (how He really created me to be). "
Good works are never a bad thing but relying upon them saying you need to offer them up is contradictory to having faith, if you have faith you will not need to do anything, in fact nothing you could do would merit favour with the Lord
As i said reading Romans convicted me about leaving the Roman "Church" because I saw many of the things that Paul was writing about applying to the Roman "Church"
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
The Roman "Church" denies Justification by faith alone as you testified you believe you need to do Good works to be justified, I believe that nothing I do or any others (otehr than Christ's dying for me) can get me into Heaven not now not ever no matter how many candles might be lit for me after I die, no matter how many Masses the Roman "Church" gets paid for to have in my name after my death, no matter how many times I pray to any Saint, even the ones I believe to be in heaven.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.
Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.
Rom 1:21 Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools
I believe that the Roman "Church" was part of the true Church but seperated from that body, they have the knowledge that God has given them in the Bible but they withold the truth in favour of Traditions of Men.
Rom 1:25 For they changed the truth of God into a lie, and they worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 3:21 But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets;
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ, toward all and upon all those who believe. For there is no difference,
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 for the display of His righteousness at this time, for Him to be just and, forgiving the one being of the faith of Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then where is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.
These are words Paul wrote about the Original Covenant people of the old Testament and how they fell away, how many lost the faith and trusted in their works. They lost sight of what the Bible was testifying of and boasted in what they had done.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that our father Abraham has found, according to flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."
Rom 4:4 But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 saying, "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 blessed is the man to whom the Lord will in no way impute sin."
Rom 4:9 Is this blessedness then on the circumcision only, or on the uncircumcision also? For we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it reckoned? Being in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received a sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith while still uncircumcised; so that he might be the father of all those believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be imputed to them also;
Rom 4:12 and a father of circumcision to those not of the circumcision only, but also to those walking by the steps of the faith of our father Abraham during uncircumcision.
Rom 4:13 For the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Much like Circumscision or anything else Abraham did could save him only faith, no work, baptism, or other sacrament (whether the Lord's supper or those not ordained by God but rather made up by Men) can save me. Pouring Oil on my head or confessing my sin to another mortal on my death bed will save me, only faith in the one who died for my sin can save me.
Read all of Roman's 5 it's just a glorious chapter of the Bible that tells of what faith can do for us.
In fact read the rest of Roman's and see in it that Paul talks about the vain traditions of men who relied upon thier own works thier own good and what end that brings and about Glorious salvation that waits for those who have faith and only rely upon it.
Your Question about Mother Theresa is a Good one, I do not believe she was a Christian, nor do I believe that any Pope has been a Christian since at least Gregory the 7th. You were right she was an idoltarer since she worshiped something that was man created as God, and since she did not trust in Christ alone she lacked the faith required for salvation.
Now I have no doubt that she was a Good person, as were many of the Popes but being a good person is not enough to get you into heaven, giving to the poor, is not enough, having the Roman "Church" canonize you is not enough to get you into heaven, (a large number of the Canonized "Saints" had thier "Saint" hood purchased)
The Bible in Both the Old Testament and the New rest the Salvation of the people of God on Faith nothing else, and those who trust in anything else they are lost.
Like I said, I will not argue that Mother Theresa was a good person, so was Ghandi, so is the Dahli Lama, being a "good person" is not what gets you into heaven.
The Roman "Church" does great works of morality, just look at thier stands on abortion and same sex marriage. But the Pharisees were the great moral leaders in Jesus' time and what di Jesus say about them and what did he say about where there teaching would lead thier followers.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
He knew that thier Rigteousness which was really a selfrighteousness coudl merit no favour.
Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"
Mat 9:12 But when he heard it, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."
He said that since they did all these great works they didn't need him, because he was sent to the earth for those who needed a Saviour. Much like if there is anything I can do or anything the Roman "Church" can do for me I don't need Jesus to save me.
Mat 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.
But teaching such false doctrine as works based salvation or as you like to see it works and faith based salvation the Roman "Church" is conspiring to destroy the Gospel of Christ.
Mat 15:1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Mat 15:2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat."
After leaving the Roman "Church" I was asked a similar question by a friedn who wanted to why I forsook all the traditions and doctrine of the Roman "Church". In fact some in my family ask the same thing of me, my answer is similar to Christ's response:
Mat 15:3 He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
The First commanment is:
Deu 5:7 "'You shall have no other gods before me.
The Second is:
Deu 5:8 "'You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Deu 5:9 You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Deu 5:10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
God wants your undvided attention he wanst you to trust in him alone, he is the only God he's not a 50%, 60% 70%, 80%, 90% or even 99% God he is 100% God he is all I need I can't rely on anything else, I can not make an idol of my own works, I can not make an Idol out of the vain traditions of men, God is Jealous he wants all my attention and all my faith.
And quite frankly he would not be God if he didn't, he is all Sufficent, if I can do anything to get myself into heaven aside from trusting in him, what would I need him for?
But alas I am a weak creature relying completely upon my creator so I need him and nothing else. So because I have faith and he has saved me i will do Good works, not to gain any merit because I can't, but as an act of Thanksgiving to the God who made me.
Nov. 6, 2006 - In reply to briannash's comment
Posted by thecatholicapologist briannash: Good works are never a bad thing but relying upon them saying you need to offer them up is contradictory to having faith, if you have faith you will not need to do anything, in fact nothing you could do would merit favour with the Lord
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If we have faith alone, it’s not going to do us any good unless we are FAITHFUL. And being faithful includes doing those things that God commanded us to do. I know that I’ve already typed this verse out twice, but I would like to hear your response to it.
James 2:24 ~ Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
The Catholic Church does not teach that we are saved by our works only. Works are a part of being a Christian, but they aren’t the only part (as it says in Romans). Neither is faith the only part (like it says in James). They go together.
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briannash: As i said reading Romans convicted me about leaving the Roman "Church" because I saw many of the things that Paul was writing about applying to the Roman "Church"
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
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What do you think “live by faith” means? We’re supposed to live out our faith, work out our faith. There’s not point in having faith if you don’t live it out.
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briannash: The Roman "Church" denies Justification by faith alone as you testified you believe you need to do Good works to be justified, I believe that nothing I do or any others (otehr than Christ's dying for me) can get me into Heaven not now not ever no matter how many candles might be lit for me after I die, no matter how many Masses the Roman "Church" gets paid for to have in my name after my death, no matter how many times I pray to any Saint, even the ones I believe to be in heaven.
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None of those things that you mentioned are going to get you to heaven. That’s not what the Catholic Church teaches. The mass, sacraments, saints…they’re all there to point us to Jesus Christ.
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briannash: I believe that the Roman "Church" was part of the true Church but seperated from that body, they have the knowledge that God has given them in the Bible but they withold the truth in favour of Traditions of Men.
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So, where was this “true church” that the RCC separated from? Was it Baptist…or perhaps Methodist? Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Independent…?
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briannash: [Romans 3:21-28] These are words Paul wrote about the Original Covenant people of the old Testament and how they fell away, how many lost the faith and trusted in their works. They lost sight of what the Bible was testifying of and boasted in what they had done.
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The works that I am referring to are not the “works of the law” in the Old Testament. We no longer have to offer blood sacrifices because Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for our sins on the cross. We can’t boast about our good works, because it’s not by our strength that we do them.
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briannash: [Romans 4:1-13] Much like Circumscision or anything else Abraham did could save him only faith, no work, baptism, or other sacrament (whether the Lord's supper or those not ordained by God but rather made up by Men) can save me. Pouring Oil on my head or confessing my sin to another mortal on my death bed will save me, only faith in the one who died for my sin can save me.
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I agree that we are saved by faith. But show me where in that passage that it says faith ALONE.
The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that the sacraments are our means of salvation.
CCC #1116 ~ Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ [Lk 5:17; 6:19; 8:46], which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant.
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briannash: Read all of Roman's 5 it's just a glorious chapter of the Bible that tells of what faith can do for us.
In fact read the rest of Roman's and see in it that Paul talks about the vain traditions of men who relied upon thier own works thier own good and what end that brings and about Glorious salvation that waits for those who have faith and only rely upon it.
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I have read Romans, but nowhere did I see any verse that talked about justification by faith ALONE. And yes, there are many good verses about how we cannot merit salvation through works alone. :)
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briannash: Your Question about Mother Theresa is a Good one, I do not believe she was a Christian, nor do I believe that any Pope has been a Christian since at least Gregory the 7th. You were right she was an idoltarer since she worshiped something that was man created as God, and since she did not trust in Christ alone she lacked the faith required for salvation.
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Here are some more examples of faithful Catholics whom you may call “idolaters”.
“Kneeling before the tabernacle, I can think of only one thing to say to our Lord: "My God, you know that I love You." And I feel that my prayer does not weary Jesus; knowing my weakness, He is satisfied with my good will.” ~ St. Therese of Lisieux
“My hope is in Christ, who strengthens the weakest by His Divine help. I can do all in Him who strengthens me. His Power is infinite, and if I lean on him, it will be mine. His Wisdom is infinite, and if I look to Him for counsel, I shall not be deceived. His Goodness is infinite, and if my trust is stayed in Him, I shall not be abandoned.” ~ Pope Pius X
“O Uncreated Beauty, whoever comes to know You once cannot love anything else. I can feel the bottomless abyss of my soul, and nothing will fill it but God Himself. I feel that I am drowned in Him like a single grain of sand in a bottomless ocean.” ~ St. Faustina Kowalska
“Late have I loved you, O Beauty ever ancient, ever new, late have I loved you! You were within me, but I was outside, and it was there that I searched for you. In my unloveliness I plunged into the lovely things which you created. You were with me, but I was not with you. Created things kept me from you; yet if they had not been in you they would have not been at all. You called, you shouted, and you broke through my deafness. You flashed, you shone, and you dispelled my blindness. You breathed you fragrance on me; I drew in breath and now I pant for you. I have tasted you, now I hunger and thirst for more. You touched me, and I burned for your peace.” ~ St. Augustine of Hippo
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briannash: Now I have no doubt that she was a Good person, as were many of the Popes but being a good person is not enough to get you into heaven, giving to the poor, is not enough, having the Roman "Church" canonize you is not enough to get you into heaven, (a large number of the Canonized "Saints" had thier "Saint" hood purchased)
The Bible in Both the Old Testament and the New rest the Salvation of the people of God on Faith nothing else, and those who trust in anything else they are lost.
Like I said, I will not argue that Mother Theresa was a good person, so was Ghandi, so is the Dahli Lama, being a "good person" is not what gets you into heaven.
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You’re right, being a “good person” will not get you into heaven. I was referring to Mother Teresa’s incredible love for Jesus and her willingness to follow Him no matter what.
“Jesus is my God, Jesus is my Spouse, Jesus is my Life, Jesus is my only Love, Jesus is my All in All; Jesus is my Everything.” ~ Mother Teresa of Calcutta
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briannash: The Roman "Church" does great works of morality, just look at thier stands on abortion and same sex marriage. But the Pharisees were the great moral leaders in Jesus' time and what di Jesus say about them and what did he say about where there teaching would lead thier followers.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
He knew that thier Rigteousness which was really a selfrighteousness coudl merit no favour.
[Matthew 9:11-13] He said that since they did all these great works they didn't need him, because he was sent to the earth for those who needed a Saviour. Much like if there is anything I can do or anything the Roman "Church" can do for me I don't need Jesus to save me.
---
Why did Christ come to save sinners?
2 Corinthians 5:21 ~ For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
Christ’s sacrifice made it possible for us to become righteous. We can’t do it on our own.
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briannash: Mat 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.
But teaching such false doctrine as works based salvation or as you like to see it works and faith based salvation the Roman "Church" is conspiring to destroy the Gospel of Christ.
---
CCC #571 ~ The Paschal mystery of Christ’s cross and Resurrection stands at the center of the Good News that the apostles, and the Church following them, are to proclaim to the world. God’s saving plan was accomplished “once for all” [Heb 9:26] by the redemptive death of his Son Jesus Christ.
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briannash: Mat 15:1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Mat 15:2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat."
After leaving the Roman "Church" I was asked a similar question by a friedn who wanted to why I forsook all the traditions and doctrine of the Roman "Church". In fact some in my family ask the same thing of me, my answer is similar to Christ's response:
Mat 15:3 He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
---
2 Thessalonians 2:15 ~ Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
The traditions of the Catholic Church break no commandment of God. I know that seems like a lofty thing to say, but that’s what I truly believe.
Matthew 16:18 ~ And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
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briannash: [Deuteronomy 5:7-10] God wants your undvided attention he wanst you to trust in him alone, he is the only God he's not a 50%, 60% 70%, 80%, 90% or even 99% God he is 100% God he is all I need I can't rely on anything else, I can not make an idol of my own works, I can not make an Idol out of the vain traditions of men, God is Jealous he wants all my attention and all my faith.
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So, should we rely on the Bible? I know that sounds irrelevant, but think about it. The Bible (obviously) isn’t God. So, when we give our attention to the Bible, are we diverting our attention from God? No, God gives us things that help us draw closer to Him. Things like Communion & Baptism for example, are gifts that God has given us to enrich our faith and trust in Him.
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briannash: And quite frankly he would not be God if he didn't, he is all Sufficent, if I can do anything to get myself into heaven aside from trusting in him, what would I need him for?
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As I’ve said before…none of the “other things” mean anything without Christ. The Church means nothing without Christ, it would be non-existent otherwise. Christ gave us the Church to help us and guide us here on earth.
Thank you again for all of your time!
~the Catholic apologist
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If we have faith alone, it’s not going to do us any good unless we are FAITHFUL. And being faithful includes doing those things that God commanded us to do. I know that I’ve already typed this verse out twice, but I would like to hear your response to it.
James 2:24 ~ Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
The Catholic Church does not teach that we are saved by our works only. Works are a part of being a Christian, but they aren’t the only part (as it says in Romans). Neither is faith the only part (like it says in James). They go together.
---
briannash: As i said reading Romans convicted me about leaving the Roman "Church" because I saw many of the things that Paul was writing about applying to the Roman "Church"
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
---
What do you think “live by faith” means? We’re supposed to live out our faith, work out our faith. There’s not point in having faith if you don’t live it out.
---
briannash: The Roman "Church" denies Justification by faith alone as you testified you believe you need to do Good works to be justified, I believe that nothing I do or any others (otehr than Christ's dying for me) can get me into Heaven not now not ever no matter how many candles might be lit for me after I die, no matter how many Masses the Roman "Church" gets paid for to have in my name after my death, no matter how many times I pray to any Saint, even the ones I believe to be in heaven.
---
None of those things that you mentioned are going to get you to heaven. That’s not what the Catholic Church teaches. The mass, sacraments, saints…they’re all there to point us to Jesus Christ.
---
briannash: I believe that the Roman "Church" was part of the true Church but seperated from that body, they have the knowledge that God has given them in the Bible but they withold the truth in favour of Traditions of Men.
---
So, where was this “true church” that the RCC separated from? Was it Baptist…or perhaps Methodist? Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Independent…?
---
briannash: [Romans 3:21-28] These are words Paul wrote about the Original Covenant people of the old Testament and how they fell away, how many lost the faith and trusted in their works. They lost sight of what the Bible was testifying of and boasted in what they had done.
---
The works that I am referring to are not the “works of the law” in the Old Testament. We no longer have to offer blood sacrifices because Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for our sins on the cross. We can’t boast about our good works, because it’s not by our strength that we do them.
---
briannash: [Romans 4:1-13] Much like Circumscision or anything else Abraham did could save him only faith, no work, baptism, or other sacrament (whether the Lord's supper or those not ordained by God but rather made up by Men) can save me. Pouring Oil on my head or confessing my sin to another mortal on my death bed will save me, only faith in the one who died for my sin can save me.
---
I agree that we are saved by faith. But show me where in that passage that it says faith ALONE.
The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that the sacraments are our means of salvation.
CCC #1116 ~ Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ [Lk 5:17; 6:19; 8:46], which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant.
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briannash: Read all of Roman's 5 it's just a glorious chapter of the Bible that tells of what faith can do for us.
In fact read the rest of Roman's and see in it that Paul talks about the vain traditions of men who relied upon thier own works thier own good and what end that brings and about Glorious salvation that waits for those who have faith and only rely upon it.
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I have read Romans, but nowhere did I see any verse that talked about justification by faith ALONE. And yes, there are many good verses about how we cannot merit salvation through works alone. :)
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briannash: Your Question about Mother Theresa is a Good one, I do not believe she was a Christian, nor do I believe that any Pope has been a Christian since at least Gregory the 7th. You were right she was an idoltarer since she worshiped something that was man created as God, and since she did not trust in Christ alone she lacked the faith required for salvation.
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Here are some more examples of faithful Catholics whom you may call “idolaters”.
“Kneeling before the tabernacle, I can think of only one thing to say to our Lord: "My God, you know that I love You." And I feel that my prayer does not weary Jesus; knowing my weakness, He is satisfied with my good will.” ~ St. Therese of Lisieux
“My hope is in Christ, who strengthens the weakest by His Divine help. I can do all in Him who strengthens me. His Power is infinite, and if I lean on him, it will be mine. His Wisdom is infinite, and if I look to Him for counsel, I shall not be deceived. His Goodness is infinite, and if my trust is stayed in Him, I shall not be abandoned.” ~ Pope Pius X
“O Uncreated Beauty, whoever comes to know You once cannot love anything else. I can feel the bottomless abyss of my soul, and nothing will fill it but God Himself. I feel that I am drowned in Him like a single grain of sand in a bottomless ocean.” ~ St. Faustina Kowalska
“Late have I loved you, O Beauty ever ancient, ever new, late have I loved you! You were within me, but I was outside, and it was there that I searched for you. In my unloveliness I plunged into the lovely things which you created. You were with me, but I was not with you. Created things kept me from you; yet if they had not been in you they would have not been at all. You called, you shouted, and you broke through my deafness. You flashed, you shone, and you dispelled my blindness. You breathed you fragrance on me; I drew in breath and now I pant for you. I have tasted you, now I hunger and thirst for more. You touched me, and I burned for your peace.” ~ St. Augustine of Hippo
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briannash: Now I have no doubt that she was a Good person, as were many of the Popes but being a good person is not enough to get you into heaven, giving to the poor, is not enough, having the Roman "Church" canonize you is not enough to get you into heaven, (a large number of the Canonized "Saints" had thier "Saint" hood purchased)
The Bible in Both the Old Testament and the New rest the Salvation of the people of God on Faith nothing else, and those who trust in anything else they are lost.
Like I said, I will not argue that Mother Theresa was a good person, so was Ghandi, so is the Dahli Lama, being a "good person" is not what gets you into heaven.
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You’re right, being a “good person” will not get you into heaven. I was referring to Mother Teresa’s incredible love for Jesus and her willingness to follow Him no matter what.
“Jesus is my God, Jesus is my Spouse, Jesus is my Life, Jesus is my only Love, Jesus is my All in All; Jesus is my Everything.” ~ Mother Teresa of Calcutta
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briannash: The Roman "Church" does great works of morality, just look at thier stands on abortion and same sex marriage. But the Pharisees were the great moral leaders in Jesus' time and what di Jesus say about them and what did he say about where there teaching would lead thier followers.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
He knew that thier Rigteousness which was really a selfrighteousness coudl merit no favour.
[Matthew 9:11-13] He said that since they did all these great works they didn't need him, because he was sent to the earth for those who needed a Saviour. Much like if there is anything I can do or anything the Roman "Church" can do for me I don't need Jesus to save me.
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Why did Christ come to save sinners?
2 Corinthians 5:21 ~ For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
Christ’s sacrifice made it possible for us to become righteous. We can’t do it on our own.
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briannash: Mat 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.
But teaching such false doctrine as works based salvation or as you like to see it works and faith based salvation the Roman "Church" is conspiring to destroy the Gospel of Christ.
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CCC #571 ~ The Paschal mystery of Christ’s cross and Resurrection stands at the center of the Good News that the apostles, and the Church following them, are to proclaim to the world. God’s saving plan was accomplished “once for all” [Heb 9:26] by the redemptive death of his Son Jesus Christ.
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briannash: Mat 15:1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Mat 15:2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat."
After leaving the Roman "Church" I was asked a similar question by a friedn who wanted to why I forsook all the traditions and doctrine of the Roman "Church". In fact some in my family ask the same thing of me, my answer is similar to Christ's response:
Mat 15:3 He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
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2 Thessalonians 2:15 ~ Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
The traditions of the Catholic Church break no commandment of God. I know that seems like a lofty thing to say, but that’s what I truly believe.
Matthew 16:18 ~ And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
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briannash: [Deuteronomy 5:7-10] God wants your undvided attention he wanst you to trust in him alone, he is the only God he's not a 50%, 60% 70%, 80%, 90% or even 99% God he is 100% God he is all I need I can't rely on anything else, I can not make an idol of my own works, I can not make an Idol out of the vain traditions of men, God is Jealous he wants all my attention and all my faith.
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So, should we rely on the Bible? I know that sounds irrelevant, but think about it. The Bible (obviously) isn’t God. So, when we give our attention to the Bible, are we diverting our attention from God? No, God gives us things that help us draw closer to Him. Things like Communion & Baptism for example, are gifts that God has given us to enrich our faith and trust in Him.
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briannash: And quite frankly he would not be God if he didn't, he is all Sufficent, if I can do anything to get myself into heaven aside from trusting in him, what would I need him for?
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As I’ve said before…none of the “other things” mean anything without Christ. The Church means nothing without Christ, it would be non-existent otherwise. Christ gave us the Church to help us and guide us here on earth.
Thank you again for all of your time!
~the Catholic apologist
Nov. 9, 2006 - Untitled Comment
Posted by briannash Ask your Priest if you were not baptised and you did not go to the Sacraments woudl you go to heaven by just believeing ask your priest why they Hold Masses for people who have already died since they are either in Heaven or Hell.
He will tell you that they need your help (or others on earth) to get into heaven, that is not relying upon Christ Alone that is relying upon works.
Christ's dying and ressurection is sufficent.
I've already commented on James, I agree that faith without works is dead faith so it isn't really faith, and liek James I believe that because I have faith (an alive faith) I have works, I do not believe what the Roman "Church" teaches that works comes first or is as necessary as faith.
Again if you can tell me what I as a man can do to merit favour with God, nothing. I need Christ and Christ alone and as I said because I have been saved and have faith I will do good works, not because I do works do I have faith.
Mother Theresa might of had a love for Jesus but she did not trust in him alone for her salvation. She was relying upon the Sacraments, her works. She might of loved him but she did not submit herslf to them. Like I said what it amounted to was she was a good person who did Good works, but Good works are not enough to get you into Heaven. (as a side note the Church did not believed in Transubstantiation until almost 700 years after Augustines Death)
I pointed out teh passages in Romans where it said faith alone, read Romans and Read it objectively forget all the false doctrine you have been taught and just read it.
He will tell you that they need your help (or others on earth) to get into heaven, that is not relying upon Christ Alone that is relying upon works.
Christ's dying and ressurection is sufficent.
I've already commented on James, I agree that faith without works is dead faith so it isn't really faith, and liek James I believe that because I have faith (an alive faith) I have works, I do not believe what the Roman "Church" teaches that works comes first or is as necessary as faith.
Again if you can tell me what I as a man can do to merit favour with God, nothing. I need Christ and Christ alone and as I said because I have been saved and have faith I will do good works, not because I do works do I have faith.
Mother Theresa might of had a love for Jesus but she did not trust in him alone for her salvation. She was relying upon the Sacraments, her works. She might of loved him but she did not submit herslf to them. Like I said what it amounted to was she was a good person who did Good works, but Good works are not enough to get you into Heaven. (as a side note the Church did not believed in Transubstantiation until almost 700 years after Augustines Death)
I pointed out teh passages in Romans where it said faith alone, read Romans and Read it objectively forget all the false doctrine you have been taught and just read it.
Nov. 10, 2006 - In reply to briannash's comment:
Posted by thecatholicapologist briannash: [Your priest] will tell you that they need your help (or others on earth) to get into heaven, that is not relying upon Christ Alone that is relying upon works.
Christ's dying and ressurection is sufficent.
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CCC #229 ~ Faith in God leads us to turn to Him alone as our first origin and our ultimate goal, and neither to prefer anything to him nor to substitute anything for Him.
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briannash: I've already commented on James, I agree that faith without works is dead faith so it isn't really faith, and liek James I believe that because I have faith (an alive faith) I have works, I do not believe what the Roman "Church" teaches that works comes first or is as necessary as faith.
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“Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed. There is here a particular reference to ourselves; we hold in our hearts one we have not seen in the flesh. We are included in these words, but only if we follow up our faith with good works. The true believer practices what he believes. But of those who pay only lip service to faith, Paul has this to say: They profess to know God, but they deny him in their works. Therefore James says: Faith without works is dead.” ~ Pope St. Gregory the Great
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briannash: Mother Theresa might of had a love for Jesus but she did not trust in him alone for her salvation.
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“Give yourself fully to God. He will use you to accomplish great things on the condition that you believe much more in His love than in your own weakness.” ~ Mother Teresa of Calcutta
You can read more of Mother Teresa’s own words here.
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briannash: She was relying upon the Sacraments, her works. She might of loved him but she did not submit herslf to them.
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Sacraments are not “works” that get us to heaven. They are gifts that God has given us to impart grace. They strengthen us in our Christian walk.
CCC #1116 ~ Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ [Lk 5:17; 6:19; 8:46], which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant.
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briannash: Like I said what it amounted to was she was a good person who did Good works, but Good works are not enough to get you into Heaven.
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The Catholic Church does not teach that good works are enough to get you to heaven. Ultimately, we are saved by the grace of God through Jesus’ redemptive sacrifice on the cross.
CCC #1996 ~ Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. [Jn 1:12-19; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4]
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briannash: as a side note the Church did not believed in Transubstantiation until almost 700 years after Augustines Death
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“We faithfully confess, that before consecration it is bread and wine, the product of nature; but after consecration it is the body and blood of Christ, consecrated by the blessing.” ~ St. Augustine of Hippo (Quoted In Gratian, p. 3. dist. ii. c. 41.)
"It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters [i.e., priests], whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer [the Eucharistic sacrifice] should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer [it]" ~ Council of Nicaea I (Canon 18 [A.D. 325]).
You can read more quotes from the Early Church Fathers on the doctrine of transubstantiation here.
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briannash: I pointed out teh passages in Romans where it said faith alone, read Romans and Read it objectively forget all the false doctrine you have been taught and just read it.
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Mr. Nash, you still have yet to show me a verse in Romans, or anywhere in the Bible, where it says that we are saved by faith ALONE. Yes, we are saved by faith. But to have faith alone defeats the whole purpose of having faith in the first place.
Pax Christi,
~the Catholic apologist
Christ's dying and ressurection is sufficent.
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CCC #229 ~ Faith in God leads us to turn to Him alone as our first origin and our ultimate goal, and neither to prefer anything to him nor to substitute anything for Him.
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briannash: I've already commented on James, I agree that faith without works is dead faith so it isn't really faith, and liek James I believe that because I have faith (an alive faith) I have works, I do not believe what the Roman "Church" teaches that works comes first or is as necessary as faith.
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“Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed. There is here a particular reference to ourselves; we hold in our hearts one we have not seen in the flesh. We are included in these words, but only if we follow up our faith with good works. The true believer practices what he believes. But of those who pay only lip service to faith, Paul has this to say: They profess to know God, but they deny him in their works. Therefore James says: Faith without works is dead.” ~ Pope St. Gregory the Great
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briannash: Mother Theresa might of had a love for Jesus but she did not trust in him alone for her salvation.
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“Give yourself fully to God. He will use you to accomplish great things on the condition that you believe much more in His love than in your own weakness.” ~ Mother Teresa of Calcutta
You can read more of Mother Teresa’s own words here.
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briannash: She was relying upon the Sacraments, her works. She might of loved him but she did not submit herslf to them.
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Sacraments are not “works” that get us to heaven. They are gifts that God has given us to impart grace. They strengthen us in our Christian walk.
CCC #1116 ~ Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ [Lk 5:17; 6:19; 8:46], which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant.
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briannash: Like I said what it amounted to was she was a good person who did Good works, but Good works are not enough to get you into Heaven.
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The Catholic Church does not teach that good works are enough to get you to heaven. Ultimately, we are saved by the grace of God through Jesus’ redemptive sacrifice on the cross.
CCC #1996 ~ Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. [Jn 1:12-19; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4]
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briannash: as a side note the Church did not believed in Transubstantiation until almost 700 years after Augustines Death
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“We faithfully confess, that before consecration it is bread and wine, the product of nature; but after consecration it is the body and blood of Christ, consecrated by the blessing.” ~ St. Augustine of Hippo (Quoted In Gratian, p. 3. dist. ii. c. 41.)
"It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters [i.e., priests], whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer [the Eucharistic sacrifice] should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer [it]" ~ Council of Nicaea I (Canon 18 [A.D. 325]).
You can read more quotes from the Early Church Fathers on the doctrine of transubstantiation here.
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briannash: I pointed out teh passages in Romans where it said faith alone, read Romans and Read it objectively forget all the false doctrine you have been taught and just read it.
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Mr. Nash, you still have yet to show me a verse in Romans, or anywhere in the Bible, where it says that we are saved by faith ALONE. Yes, we are saved by faith. But to have faith alone defeats the whole purpose of having faith in the first place.
Pax Christi,
~the Catholic apologist
Nov. 13, 2006 - Links
Posted by thecatholicapologist Sorry, the links in the previous post ^^ didn't work for some reason. I'm not able to edit my comment, so here they are.
http://www.ewtn.com/motherteresa/words.htm
http://catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp
http://www.ewtn.com/motherteresa/words.htm
http://catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp
