Nov. 13, 2006
Purgatory: Purifying Fire
CCC #1030 ~ All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
Purgatory is not a “second chance” for those who die to “make up for” their sins on earth. It is the place where God purifies us in order that we can enter heaven in a completely clean state.
Nothing unclean can enter into heaven, therefore, we must be purified by Christ. Part of that purification occurs on earth. Since our human nature is weakened by sin, it is through Christ’s power that He purifies us from our sinfulness.
God commanded:
Matthew 5:48 ~ Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven in perfect.
God created us to be perfect human beings. After the Fall of Man, as I said earlier, our nature was weakened by sin. But, in His mercy, God sent His only Son into the world to offer Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. He made it possible for us to become perfect and enter into the joy of heaven.
There is a HUGE difference between hellfire and purgatorial fire. Hellfire is an absence from God, purgatorial fire is a gradual drawing nearer to God.
Hebrews 12:10 ~ For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
God disciplines us (his children) in order that we may be “partakers of his holiness”. He wants us to enter heaven and live with Him in eternal joy…completely absent of any sin.
Pax Christi,
~the Catholic apologist
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Nov. 14, 2006 - Untitled Comment
Posted by Songwriter yes..um...first of all, I speak Latin and saw your comment on babysquirrel about your confusion on your title. And it should be veritatis. just so you know. :)
and second of all, unless you can prove to me that purgatory exsists using only the Bible, the Verbum Dei, then I am not going to believe you. See, not to be rude, but you can't use the CCC (which you didn't give a definition for) to convince me of purgatory because it's not the Bible. You can't use a Catholic definition to convince a Protestant that what you're saying is true. You have to go to the one thing they all hold sacred and holy, God's Word.
I think you took Matthew 5:48 a bit out of context. Jesus says this after He has talked about Murder, Adultry, Divorce, Oaths, Revenge, about loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you. He is showing us the way to be perfect, the way to be like Him. It's IMPOSSIBLE. That's why He had to die. Because we couldn't do it alone. Because we were imperfect. But if we do it with Jesus, if we let Him work in our lives, if we surrender to Him, if we let Him be LORD, then we will be perfect. God sees us as His perfect children.
Let me post Hebrews 12:10 in the NLT version. "For our earthly fathers diciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God's dicipline is always right and good for us because it means we will share in His holiness."
Better yet, let me post the verses that surround it.
"Since we respected our earthly fathers who disciplined us, shouldn’t we submit even more to the discipline of the Father of our spirits, and live forever? For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness. No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening—it’s painful! But afterward there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way." Hebrews 12:9-11
I'm afraid this scripture does not prove purgatory at all.
Songwriter <><
and second of all, unless you can prove to me that purgatory exsists using only the Bible, the Verbum Dei, then I am not going to believe you. See, not to be rude, but you can't use the CCC (which you didn't give a definition for) to convince me of purgatory because it's not the Bible. You can't use a Catholic definition to convince a Protestant that what you're saying is true. You have to go to the one thing they all hold sacred and holy, God's Word.
I think you took Matthew 5:48 a bit out of context. Jesus says this after He has talked about Murder, Adultry, Divorce, Oaths, Revenge, about loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you. He is showing us the way to be perfect, the way to be like Him. It's IMPOSSIBLE. That's why He had to die. Because we couldn't do it alone. Because we were imperfect. But if we do it with Jesus, if we let Him work in our lives, if we surrender to Him, if we let Him be LORD, then we will be perfect. God sees us as His perfect children.
Let me post Hebrews 12:10 in the NLT version. "For our earthly fathers diciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God's dicipline is always right and good for us because it means we will share in His holiness."
Better yet, let me post the verses that surround it.
"Since we respected our earthly fathers who disciplined us, shouldn’t we submit even more to the discipline of the Father of our spirits, and live forever? For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness. No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening—it’s painful! But afterward there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way." Hebrews 12:9-11
I'm afraid this scripture does not prove purgatory at all.
Songwriter <><
Nov. 18, 2006 - In response to Songwriter's comment
Posted by thecatholicapologist Songwriter,
THANK YOU for clearing up my confusion on the Latin. LOL I originally had it as Veritatis, but changed it to Veritas because I wasn’t sure which one it was. :) Latin wanna-be…
And I apologize for not explaining what the CCC is. It stands for Catechism of the Catholic Church. The reason that I quoted it is not necessarily to “prove” to my Protestant readers that Purgatory does exist. I quote the CCC because I want everyone to understand what the official Church teaching on the subject. There are many misconceptions about the Catholic Churches teachings, so when I discuss a topic (such as purgatory), I always want to first of all establish what the Church really teaches. That helps in avoiding confusion.
---
Songwriter: He is showing us the way to be perfect, the way to be like Him. It's IMPOSSIBLE. That's why He had to die. Because we couldn't do it alone. Because we were imperfect. But if we do it with Jesus, if we let Him work in our lives, if we surrender to Him, if we let Him be LORD, then we will be perfect.
---
Exactly! When we surrender ourselves to Christ, he will perfect us. As Catholics, we believe that that perfection happens both on earth and in purgatory. Think of this example: two men die on the same day. The first man had been a Christian his entire life. He had always loved God and followed him with all his heart. The second man lived life as a drug addict and alcoholic. But, on his deathbed, he converted to Christ. Which one is more prepared for heaven? Obviously, the former alcoholic would still have some perfecting to do. His desire for sin would still be much stronger than the man who loved God all his life.
Purgatory is not a place where Christians “work” to make up for all their sins on earth. It is a place where Christ “cleans us up” before we enter into heaven. Here is what C.S. Lewis had to say about purgatory (in his Letters to Malcolm):
"I believe in Purgatory...Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’—"Even so, sir.’"
As for Hebrews 12:10, you are correct. It does not “prove” that purgatory exists. The reason that I quoted it is because it supports (though no directly), the doctrine behind purgatory. God disciplines us in order that we may become holy. That’s basically what we believe purgatory is all about.
I have written up another post that has to do with the point you made about the Bible, which you can read here.
Thank you again for your comment!
Pax Christi,
~the Catholic apologist
THANK YOU for clearing up my confusion on the Latin. LOL I originally had it as Veritatis, but changed it to Veritas because I wasn’t sure which one it was. :) Latin wanna-be…
And I apologize for not explaining what the CCC is. It stands for Catechism of the Catholic Church. The reason that I quoted it is not necessarily to “prove” to my Protestant readers that Purgatory does exist. I quote the CCC because I want everyone to understand what the official Church teaching on the subject. There are many misconceptions about the Catholic Churches teachings, so when I discuss a topic (such as purgatory), I always want to first of all establish what the Church really teaches. That helps in avoiding confusion.
---
Songwriter: He is showing us the way to be perfect, the way to be like Him. It's IMPOSSIBLE. That's why He had to die. Because we couldn't do it alone. Because we were imperfect. But if we do it with Jesus, if we let Him work in our lives, if we surrender to Him, if we let Him be LORD, then we will be perfect.
---
Exactly! When we surrender ourselves to Christ, he will perfect us. As Catholics, we believe that that perfection happens both on earth and in purgatory. Think of this example: two men die on the same day. The first man had been a Christian his entire life. He had always loved God and followed him with all his heart. The second man lived life as a drug addict and alcoholic. But, on his deathbed, he converted to Christ. Which one is more prepared for heaven? Obviously, the former alcoholic would still have some perfecting to do. His desire for sin would still be much stronger than the man who loved God all his life.
Purgatory is not a place where Christians “work” to make up for all their sins on earth. It is a place where Christ “cleans us up” before we enter into heaven. Here is what C.S. Lewis had to say about purgatory (in his Letters to Malcolm):
"I believe in Purgatory...Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’—"Even so, sir.’"
As for Hebrews 12:10, you are correct. It does not “prove” that purgatory exists. The reason that I quoted it is because it supports (though no directly), the doctrine behind purgatory. God disciplines us in order that we may become holy. That’s basically what we believe purgatory is all about.
I have written up another post that has to do with the point you made about the Bible, which you can read here.
Thank you again for your comment!
Pax Christi,
~the Catholic apologist
Dec. 5, 2006 - Untitled Comment
Posted by Songwriter Hello. Since I have already apologized for not commenting sooner, I'll skip that part and get straight to the point.
You said:
Think of this example: two men die on the same day. The first man had been a Christian his entire life. He had always loved God and followed him with all his heart. The second man lived life as a drug addict and alcoholic. But, on his deathbed, he converted to Christ. Which one is more prepared for heaven? Obviously, the former alcoholic would still have some perfecting to do. His desire for sin would still be much stronger than the man who loved God all his life.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Your question: Which one is more prepared for heaven.
My answer: Neither. We were born with a sin-nature. When we accept Jesus into our lives, our sin nature dies, we are saved, and we are clean.
Just.
Like.
That.
The ex-alcoholic would not have any perfecting to do when he got into heaven.
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43.
Do you know what remission means? It means: forgivenss or pardon; cancellation of or release from a debt, tax, penalty, etc. If upon believing we are forgiven and our sin is pardoned or cancelled out, then there is nothing in us that needs to be cleaned. God does not allow sin into heaven. If our sins are washed away, then there is no need for us to undergo any more cleansing.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
You quoted C.S. Lewis:
"I believe in Purgatory...Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’—"Even so, sir.’"
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
The point is this: God will not say that to us. Ever. God meets us where we are. That's the beauty of grace. Once we believe, we are clean. We don't stay in the same state we were in.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17
You've quoted the CCC and C.S. Lewis trying to prove purgatory. Now let me quote someone: Jesus.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." John 5:24-25
Notice the present tense on "is passed from death unto life". And, btw, the "dead" in this sentence is refering to the "spiritually dead". and they that hear shall live.
"Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:29 NLT
"I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark." John 12:46 NLT
Believe...all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark. They will no longer remain. If they're not in the dark, then they must be in the light. Clean. Pure. Forgiven.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47
Jesus said that all who put their trust in Him will no longer remain in the darkness. He said that those who believed in Him had everlasting life. He said the only work God wants from us is for us to believe. He said those who believed had passed from death into life. If we have already passed from death to life, then there must not be any sin in us, for we have life and "the wages of sin is death." So, there must not be any need for us to be cleansed, even if we have been an alcoholic.
Therefore, there must not be any need for Purgatory.
Because either Jesus was telling the truth or He wasn't really God.
Songwriter <><
You said:
Think of this example: two men die on the same day. The first man had been a Christian his entire life. He had always loved God and followed him with all his heart. The second man lived life as a drug addict and alcoholic. But, on his deathbed, he converted to Christ. Which one is more prepared for heaven? Obviously, the former alcoholic would still have some perfecting to do. His desire for sin would still be much stronger than the man who loved God all his life.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Your question: Which one is more prepared for heaven.
My answer: Neither. We were born with a sin-nature. When we accept Jesus into our lives, our sin nature dies, we are saved, and we are clean.
Just.
Like.
That.
The ex-alcoholic would not have any perfecting to do when he got into heaven.
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43.
Do you know what remission means? It means: forgivenss or pardon; cancellation of or release from a debt, tax, penalty, etc. If upon believing we are forgiven and our sin is pardoned or cancelled out, then there is nothing in us that needs to be cleaned. God does not allow sin into heaven. If our sins are washed away, then there is no need for us to undergo any more cleansing.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
You quoted C.S. Lewis:
"I believe in Purgatory...Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’—"Even so, sir.’"
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
The point is this: God will not say that to us. Ever. God meets us where we are. That's the beauty of grace. Once we believe, we are clean. We don't stay in the same state we were in.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17
You've quoted the CCC and C.S. Lewis trying to prove purgatory. Now let me quote someone: Jesus.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." John 5:24-25
Notice the present tense on "is passed from death unto life". And, btw, the "dead" in this sentence is refering to the "spiritually dead". and they that hear shall live.
"Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:29 NLT
"I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark." John 12:46 NLT
Believe...all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark. They will no longer remain. If they're not in the dark, then they must be in the light. Clean. Pure. Forgiven.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47
Jesus said that all who put their trust in Him will no longer remain in the darkness. He said that those who believed in Him had everlasting life. He said the only work God wants from us is for us to believe. He said those who believed had passed from death into life. If we have already passed from death to life, then there must not be any sin in us, for we have life and "the wages of sin is death." So, there must not be any need for us to be cleansed, even if we have been an alcoholic.
Therefore, there must not be any need for Purgatory.
Because either Jesus was telling the truth or He wasn't really God.
Songwriter <><
Dec. 5, 2006 - In reply to Songwriter:
Posted by thecatholicapologist Songwriter,
Thanks for taking the time to reply!
All of the passages that you quoted are wonderful verses, but I don’t see how they contradict purgatory. All those who enter purgatory are in a “state of grace”. That means that, as you said, they are forgiven by God. But, think of this other example. Say you broke a window in a fit of anger. When you realize what you’ve done, you tell the owner that you’re sorry and he mercifully forgives you. Does that mean you don’t have to fix the window? No, you still have to make restitution for what you’ve done.
Christ didn’t die to make our lives easy. As Christians, we are required to suffer in order to enter into the joy of heaven.
1 Peter 5:10 ~ But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
Our calling is to be imitators of Christ in everything. That’s what the name Christian means…“little Christ”. We need to imitate him in everything, even in His suffering.
Ephesians 5:1-2 ~ Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Paul begins in the first verse by saying that we must follow God, and then he goes on to say that God -– Christ Jesus, gave Himself up as a sacrifice of love.
John 15:13 ~ Great love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
That’s what love is –- laying down your life for your friend. If we are supposed to follow God in everything, that means that we also must lay our lives down in love for Him. Suffering isn’t easy, but we have to undergo it in order to enter the joy of heaven.
Matthew 10:38 ~ And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
And Luke also says the same thing in his Gospel…
Luke 14:27 ~ And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
When the mother of James and John asked if her sons could sit at Jesus’ right and left hand in heaven, Jesus’ reply was this:
Matthew 20:22 ~ But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
What is this cup that Jesus’ drinks?
Matthew 26:39 ~ And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
…and what is this baptism with which Jesus’ is baptized?
Matthew 3:11 ~ I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
Hmm…interesting. The cup that Jesus drinks is suffering and the Baptism with which He is baptized is with fire.
But, let me back up a little. What is purgatorial fire, anyway? Well, we see a description of it here, in the book of Hebrews:
Hebrews 12:29 ~ For our God is a consuming fire.
Even the word seraphim means “burning ones”. Those angels who are highest and closest to God are burning up in His love. Do you think we’d be ready if we died to enter into the full presence of that burning love? Not yet. Purgatory is like a place where we are literally “warmed up to God”.
See…we both believe basically the same thing –- that Christ purifies us in order that we can enter heaven. But, we disagree on the application of that purification. As a Catholic, I believe that purification occurs both on earth and largely in purgatory. As a Protestant, you believe (from what I gather) that purification happens in an instant.
I believe that Christ loved us so much that he was willing to come down and die for us, to open the way to heaven. I also believe that he loves me enough to chasten me into holiness and mold me into the likeness of Himself. I know that that process will be painful. But, I need to accept with willingness the suffering necessary to become like Christ. The path to heaven is not easy. But, we can’t gain the ultimate joy of heaven and eternal dwelling with Christ without first undergoing suffering. There’s no gain without loss.
Again, thanks for your comment.
Christ’s peace,
~the Catholic apologist
Thanks for taking the time to reply!
All of the passages that you quoted are wonderful verses, but I don’t see how they contradict purgatory. All those who enter purgatory are in a “state of grace”. That means that, as you said, they are forgiven by God. But, think of this other example. Say you broke a window in a fit of anger. When you realize what you’ve done, you tell the owner that you’re sorry and he mercifully forgives you. Does that mean you don’t have to fix the window? No, you still have to make restitution for what you’ve done.
Christ didn’t die to make our lives easy. As Christians, we are required to suffer in order to enter into the joy of heaven.
1 Peter 5:10 ~ But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
Our calling is to be imitators of Christ in everything. That’s what the name Christian means…“little Christ”. We need to imitate him in everything, even in His suffering.
Ephesians 5:1-2 ~ Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Paul begins in the first verse by saying that we must follow God, and then he goes on to say that God -– Christ Jesus, gave Himself up as a sacrifice of love.
John 15:13 ~ Great love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
That’s what love is –- laying down your life for your friend. If we are supposed to follow God in everything, that means that we also must lay our lives down in love for Him. Suffering isn’t easy, but we have to undergo it in order to enter the joy of heaven.
Matthew 10:38 ~ And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
And Luke also says the same thing in his Gospel…
Luke 14:27 ~ And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
When the mother of James and John asked if her sons could sit at Jesus’ right and left hand in heaven, Jesus’ reply was this:
Matthew 20:22 ~ But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
What is this cup that Jesus’ drinks?
Matthew 26:39 ~ And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
…and what is this baptism with which Jesus’ is baptized?
Matthew 3:11 ~ I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
Hmm…interesting. The cup that Jesus drinks is suffering and the Baptism with which He is baptized is with fire.
But, let me back up a little. What is purgatorial fire, anyway? Well, we see a description of it here, in the book of Hebrews:
Hebrews 12:29 ~ For our God is a consuming fire.
Even the word seraphim means “burning ones”. Those angels who are highest and closest to God are burning up in His love. Do you think we’d be ready if we died to enter into the full presence of that burning love? Not yet. Purgatory is like a place where we are literally “warmed up to God”.
See…we both believe basically the same thing –- that Christ purifies us in order that we can enter heaven. But, we disagree on the application of that purification. As a Catholic, I believe that purification occurs both on earth and largely in purgatory. As a Protestant, you believe (from what I gather) that purification happens in an instant.
I believe that Christ loved us so much that he was willing to come down and die for us, to open the way to heaven. I also believe that he loves me enough to chasten me into holiness and mold me into the likeness of Himself. I know that that process will be painful. But, I need to accept with willingness the suffering necessary to become like Christ. The path to heaven is not easy. But, we can’t gain the ultimate joy of heaven and eternal dwelling with Christ without first undergoing suffering. There’s no gain without loss.
Again, thanks for your comment.
Christ’s peace,
~the Catholic apologist
Dec. 7, 2006 - Untitled Comment
Posted by Songwriter I broke a window in a fit of anger. When I realized what I'd done, I knocked on the door and begged the owner to forgive me. He mercifully did. Then, after examining the damage, he said I'd have to pay for it. When I heard the price, I was overwhelmed, and I started crying. I could never get that much money! Suddenly, the owner's son walked out of the house and asked what happened. After being told, the son ran back inside, then came back out with money he'd saved up his whole life. He gave it to his father and said, "Here, Dad, I'll pay for it."
No, our lives aren't going to be easy, but Jesus has already suffered. He has already paid the price.
You took 1 Peter 5:10 totally out of context. Peter wrote this during the time that the disciples of Jesus were being persecuted. When Christians were dying because they followed Jesus.
He mentioned their suffering in chapter 1 verse 3-6, "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials."
1 Peter 5:8-10 says this: "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast."
This verse does not say that we are "required" to suffer. Peter is talking to the suffering Christians trying to give them encouragement and hope.
By the way, Christians did not name themselves. It actually started out as an insult that people would call them. ex. "You little Christs!" Yes, we are called to be imitators of Christ, as stated in that verse. But that was not what the original name meant.
"Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Ephesians 5:1-2.
Yes, we are to lay down our lives in love for Him. That's obvious. Jesus wants our whole heart, not part of it. He wants our whole life, not just some of it. We should be willing to die for Him and show His love to the degree of dying for someone. But this verse does not say that we are required to suffer. It says live a life of love or walk in love.
Yes, Jesus did drink a cup of suffering for us! And we should be willing to suffer for Him. But it does not say that is required.
Hebrews 12:28-29: Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire."
Exodus 19:18: Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently.
Hebrews 12:28-29 is describing God, as God revealed Himself to the Israelites on Mount Sinai. It is not describing purgatory.
No, the life of a Christian is not easy. But I know that when I die, Christ has paid for my sins and God sees me as one of his precious children. I will go to heaven when I die.
Thank you for your comment to my comment. lol. We're alike in some ways. I don't think what you put proves purgatory. You don't think what I put disproves purgatory.
Songwriter <><
No, our lives aren't going to be easy, but Jesus has already suffered. He has already paid the price.
You took 1 Peter 5:10 totally out of context. Peter wrote this during the time that the disciples of Jesus were being persecuted. When Christians were dying because they followed Jesus.
He mentioned their suffering in chapter 1 verse 3-6, "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials."
1 Peter 5:8-10 says this: "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast."
This verse does not say that we are "required" to suffer. Peter is talking to the suffering Christians trying to give them encouragement and hope.
By the way, Christians did not name themselves. It actually started out as an insult that people would call them. ex. "You little Christs!" Yes, we are called to be imitators of Christ, as stated in that verse. But that was not what the original name meant.
"Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Ephesians 5:1-2.
Yes, we are to lay down our lives in love for Him. That's obvious. Jesus wants our whole heart, not part of it. He wants our whole life, not just some of it. We should be willing to die for Him and show His love to the degree of dying for someone. But this verse does not say that we are required to suffer. It says live a life of love or walk in love.
Yes, Jesus did drink a cup of suffering for us! And we should be willing to suffer for Him. But it does not say that is required.
Hebrews 12:28-29: Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire."
Exodus 19:18: Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently.
Hebrews 12:28-29 is describing God, as God revealed Himself to the Israelites on Mount Sinai. It is not describing purgatory.
No, the life of a Christian is not easy. But I know that when I die, Christ has paid for my sins and God sees me as one of his precious children. I will go to heaven when I die.
Thank you for your comment to my comment. lol. We're alike in some ways. I don't think what you put proves purgatory. You don't think what I put disproves purgatory.
Songwriter <><
Dec. 16, 2006 - In answer to Songwriter's comment:
Posted by thecatholicapologist Songwriter,
Sorry it took me so long to reply! I wasn’t able to post anything while HSB was down. (Can’t wait to see those pics BTW! ;)
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Songwriter: No, our lives aren't going to be easy, but Jesus has already suffered. He has already paid the price.
----------
Hebrews 12:1 ~ Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.
What is this race that is set before us? Is it a race of ease and comfort? Or is it a race filled with hard work and suffering? See, Christ has set the race before us -- the race to heaven. Does that mean that he has already run it for us? Does that mean that we’re completely let off the hook? We don’t have to run the race. Christ already ran it for us, so we can just sit back knowing that we don’t have to do anything. No. Christ came to earth as our Savior. He suffered and died to make a way to heaven. He suffered and died so that we wouldn’t have to be separated from God for eternity. He suffered and died so that we could partake in His glory in heaven in everlasting life.
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Songwriter: By the way, Christians did not name themselves. It actually started out as an insult that people would call them. ex. "You little Christs!" Yes, we are called to be imitators of Christ, as stated in that verse. But that was not what the original name meant.
----------
Whether the Christians made it up, or the pagans -- it still has the same meaning -- “little Christ”. :)
Isn’t there a verse, though, when Paul uses the term “Christian”? *goes to look it up* Aha! Found it! There are actually 3 verses -- Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28, and 1 Peter 4:16. (I just realized that none of those were written by Paul…but oh well -- close enough ;)
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But this verse [Ephesians 5:1-2] does not say that we are required to suffer. It says live a life of love or walk in love.
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No it doesn’t explicitly say that we are required to suffer. But, like you said, it does say to live a life of love. And we see the ultimate example of love in the Bible -- when Jesus gives up His life for us. [John 3:16; John 15:13]
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Hebrews 12:28-29 is describing God, as God revealed Himself to the Israelites on Mount Sinai. It is not describing purgatory.
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Like I said, purgatory is a place where we are “warmed up to God”. Hebrews 12 describes Him as a “consuming fire”. That must mean that heaven will be pretty hot, right? ;) Do you think that in our first moments in heaven, we’ll immediately be accustomed to the fiery love of God? Of course not! We’d probably be scorched to death! His love is so strong that at first exposure, we wouldn’t be able to handle it. We’re going to have to experience some suffering in order to get used to that burning love.
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Songwriter: Thank you for your comment to my comment. lol. We're alike in some ways. I don't think what you put proves purgatory. You don't think what I put disproves purgatory.
----------
My goal is not to prove to you that purgatory exists. I don’t think I can. I can’t prove to you that the Bible is the infallible, inerrant Word of God. I can’t prove that the trinity exists. I can’t prove that Jesus was born of a virgin. I can’t prove that Jesus was crucified. Just because I can’t prove something doesn’t mean that it can’t be true. What I’m trying to do is build up evidence that the idea of purgatory can be true.
1 Peter 4:12-13 ~ Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
That’s the key phrase -- "partakers of Christ’s sufferings". We don’t become holy in an instant. We can’t say a prayer and then be automatically free from temptation or the desire for sin. Sin is still going to bombard us over and over again in this life. It takes a journey to completely get rid of that desire for sin. Without Christ's death and resurrection -- it would be utterly impossible.
1 Peter 5:1 ~ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed.
Paul begins by saying that we are “partakers in Christ’s suffering”, but then he goes on to say that he is a “partaker of the glory that shall be revealed”. We can’t partake of that glory unless we “drink the cup that [Christ] drink of”. Christ didn’t die to make it easy for us to go to heaven. He died to make a way to heaven. No one said that path would be easy. In fact, the impression that you get from the Bible is that it’s going to be very hard. The only way that we can endure it is through Christ’s strength. We are completely helpless without Him. He, like a loving Father, chastises us in order to lead us to holiness. He takes us through “the fiery trial” in order that we can partake in His magnificent glory.
Zechariah 13:9 ~ And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call upon my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
I’m not implying that this verse is talking about purgatory directly, but it presents the same concept of “going through the fire” in order to be purified.
Thanks again for replying! I hope you have a blessed Christmas season!
Pax Christi,
~the Catholic apologist
Sorry it took me so long to reply! I wasn’t able to post anything while HSB was down. (Can’t wait to see those pics BTW! ;)
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Songwriter: No, our lives aren't going to be easy, but Jesus has already suffered. He has already paid the price.
----------
Hebrews 12:1 ~ Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.
What is this race that is set before us? Is it a race of ease and comfort? Or is it a race filled with hard work and suffering? See, Christ has set the race before us -- the race to heaven. Does that mean that he has already run it for us? Does that mean that we’re completely let off the hook? We don’t have to run the race. Christ already ran it for us, so we can just sit back knowing that we don’t have to do anything. No. Christ came to earth as our Savior. He suffered and died to make a way to heaven. He suffered and died so that we wouldn’t have to be separated from God for eternity. He suffered and died so that we could partake in His glory in heaven in everlasting life.
----------
Songwriter: By the way, Christians did not name themselves. It actually started out as an insult that people would call them. ex. "You little Christs!" Yes, we are called to be imitators of Christ, as stated in that verse. But that was not what the original name meant.
----------
Whether the Christians made it up, or the pagans -- it still has the same meaning -- “little Christ”. :)
Isn’t there a verse, though, when Paul uses the term “Christian”? *goes to look it up* Aha! Found it! There are actually 3 verses -- Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28, and 1 Peter 4:16. (I just realized that none of those were written by Paul…but oh well -- close enough ;)
----------
But this verse [Ephesians 5:1-2] does not say that we are required to suffer. It says live a life of love or walk in love.
----------
No it doesn’t explicitly say that we are required to suffer. But, like you said, it does say to live a life of love. And we see the ultimate example of love in the Bible -- when Jesus gives up His life for us. [John 3:16; John 15:13]
----------
Hebrews 12:28-29 is describing God, as God revealed Himself to the Israelites on Mount Sinai. It is not describing purgatory.
----------
Like I said, purgatory is a place where we are “warmed up to God”. Hebrews 12 describes Him as a “consuming fire”. That must mean that heaven will be pretty hot, right? ;) Do you think that in our first moments in heaven, we’ll immediately be accustomed to the fiery love of God? Of course not! We’d probably be scorched to death! His love is so strong that at first exposure, we wouldn’t be able to handle it. We’re going to have to experience some suffering in order to get used to that burning love.
----------
Songwriter: Thank you for your comment to my comment. lol. We're alike in some ways. I don't think what you put proves purgatory. You don't think what I put disproves purgatory.
----------
My goal is not to prove to you that purgatory exists. I don’t think I can. I can’t prove to you that the Bible is the infallible, inerrant Word of God. I can’t prove that the trinity exists. I can’t prove that Jesus was born of a virgin. I can’t prove that Jesus was crucified. Just because I can’t prove something doesn’t mean that it can’t be true. What I’m trying to do is build up evidence that the idea of purgatory can be true.
1 Peter 4:12-13 ~ Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
That’s the key phrase -- "partakers of Christ’s sufferings". We don’t become holy in an instant. We can’t say a prayer and then be automatically free from temptation or the desire for sin. Sin is still going to bombard us over and over again in this life. It takes a journey to completely get rid of that desire for sin. Without Christ's death and resurrection -- it would be utterly impossible.
1 Peter 5:1 ~ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed.
Paul begins by saying that we are “partakers in Christ’s suffering”, but then he goes on to say that he is a “partaker of the glory that shall be revealed”. We can’t partake of that glory unless we “drink the cup that [Christ] drink of”. Christ didn’t die to make it easy for us to go to heaven. He died to make a way to heaven. No one said that path would be easy. In fact, the impression that you get from the Bible is that it’s going to be very hard. The only way that we can endure it is through Christ’s strength. We are completely helpless without Him. He, like a loving Father, chastises us in order to lead us to holiness. He takes us through “the fiery trial” in order that we can partake in His magnificent glory.
Zechariah 13:9 ~ And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call upon my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
I’m not implying that this verse is talking about purgatory directly, but it presents the same concept of “going through the fire” in order to be purified.
Thanks again for replying! I hope you have a blessed Christmas season!
Pax Christi,
~the Catholic apologist
Dec. 18, 2006 - Untitled Comment
Posted by Songwriter First off, I just want to say that I’ve enjoyed debating with you. And that I’ll get those pictures up as soon as HSB actually lets me sign into my screen name. Lol.
You’ve made it very clear exactly what you believe, and I want to thank you for that. I want to apologize because I’m afraid that my beliefs have not been clear. So, now, I’d like just to share with you what I believe about this and then we can move on, because, frankly, we’re not getting anywhere with this. Lol.
I did not say that because Jesus paid the price for me, life was going to be a piece of cake. It’s not. Jesus, in fact, said it would be the opposite. I didn’t say it was easy. I said that He paid the price for my sins so that I could go to heaven. I do not have to pay that price. Once I accept Jesus into my life, believe in Him, and make Him Lord of my life, I am forgiven and I am saved. Because the price has already been paid.
This does not mean that we will not suffer. The Bible says in Romans 5 that “…We glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.”
Tribulations will strengthen our faith. But, we will not have to suffer as punishment for our sins. Once we have been saved by Jesus’ blood, the price for our sins is paid. Now, I’m not saying that sin does not have consequences. It does. If I kill somebody, I’m going to jail. Jesus didn’t save me so I could sin and get away with it. I make stupid decisions and mistakes and there are consequences for that. But God has forgiven me. When I repent of my sins, He forgives and forgets and I am brand new and pure and clean in His sight. Yes, there will also be tests of faith. Abraham was tested. David, a man after God’s own heart, committed adultery and had to pay the consequences, but God forgave Him.
Sometimes we have to go through struggles to get to the test. Jacob, for instance, fought an angel all night long, and after the struggle, the angel asked him, “What is your name?” And he replied, “Jacob.” Then, the angel gave him a new name. The test was not the struggle. The test was the question. Because the last time Jacob was asked that question, he lied. His father asked him his name, and Jacob, the deceiver, said, “I am Esau.”
The angel asked Jacob, “What is your name?”
He replied, “Jacob.”
Then, the angel told him that his name was now Israel. Not deceiver, but the one who struggles with God and overcomes.
You know, sometimes, God even has to slap us to get our attention. Have you ever seen on TV where one character will be going crazy or will be acting in a wrong way or have the wrong attitude and the other character will slap him in the face and say, “Wake up!” or “Get a hold of yourself!” or “Stop!”
My sin debt is paid. There will still be consequences, there will still be trials and tribulation. Jesus said, “A servant is not greater than the master. Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you. The people of the world will hate you because you belong to me, for they don’t know God who sent me.”
Also, I didn’t say that believers didn’t call themselves Christians just because it started out as an insult. The name stuck and it really did symbolize them, so it stuck. Almost the same thing happened to the Puritans.
And, yes, you can prove that Jesus was crucified. There are records. Joshua (Jesus) Ben-Joseph was a real person, He was really born, He was really a carpenter, He really did teach people and perform miracles, and He was really crucified. There are records of His crucifixion. He really did rise from the dead, but that is not on record, because the priests made up a story about the disciples stealing His body.
And I believe hell is the place where people burn. Jesus used many illustrations, as did many other writers in the Bible. When it talks about us being refined in the fire as silver is and stuff, I believe it is referring to the trials and tests of faith that will strengthen and grow us and will make us more like the image of God. Do you know how the silversmith knows when to take the silver out of the fire? When he can see his reflection in it.
I’ve enjoyed discussing this with you.
God bless!
Danya <><
You’ve made it very clear exactly what you believe, and I want to thank you for that. I want to apologize because I’m afraid that my beliefs have not been clear. So, now, I’d like just to share with you what I believe about this and then we can move on, because, frankly, we’re not getting anywhere with this. Lol.
I did not say that because Jesus paid the price for me, life was going to be a piece of cake. It’s not. Jesus, in fact, said it would be the opposite. I didn’t say it was easy. I said that He paid the price for my sins so that I could go to heaven. I do not have to pay that price. Once I accept Jesus into my life, believe in Him, and make Him Lord of my life, I am forgiven and I am saved. Because the price has already been paid.
This does not mean that we will not suffer. The Bible says in Romans 5 that “…We glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.”
Tribulations will strengthen our faith. But, we will not have to suffer as punishment for our sins. Once we have been saved by Jesus’ blood, the price for our sins is paid. Now, I’m not saying that sin does not have consequences. It does. If I kill somebody, I’m going to jail. Jesus didn’t save me so I could sin and get away with it. I make stupid decisions and mistakes and there are consequences for that. But God has forgiven me. When I repent of my sins, He forgives and forgets and I am brand new and pure and clean in His sight. Yes, there will also be tests of faith. Abraham was tested. David, a man after God’s own heart, committed adultery and had to pay the consequences, but God forgave Him.
Sometimes we have to go through struggles to get to the test. Jacob, for instance, fought an angel all night long, and after the struggle, the angel asked him, “What is your name?” And he replied, “Jacob.” Then, the angel gave him a new name. The test was not the struggle. The test was the question. Because the last time Jacob was asked that question, he lied. His father asked him his name, and Jacob, the deceiver, said, “I am Esau.”
The angel asked Jacob, “What is your name?”
He replied, “Jacob.”
Then, the angel told him that his name was now Israel. Not deceiver, but the one who struggles with God and overcomes.
You know, sometimes, God even has to slap us to get our attention. Have you ever seen on TV where one character will be going crazy or will be acting in a wrong way or have the wrong attitude and the other character will slap him in the face and say, “Wake up!” or “Get a hold of yourself!” or “Stop!”
My sin debt is paid. There will still be consequences, there will still be trials and tribulation. Jesus said, “A servant is not greater than the master. Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you. The people of the world will hate you because you belong to me, for they don’t know God who sent me.”
Also, I didn’t say that believers didn’t call themselves Christians just because it started out as an insult. The name stuck and it really did symbolize them, so it stuck. Almost the same thing happened to the Puritans.
And, yes, you can prove that Jesus was crucified. There are records. Joshua (Jesus) Ben-Joseph was a real person, He was really born, He was really a carpenter, He really did teach people and perform miracles, and He was really crucified. There are records of His crucifixion. He really did rise from the dead, but that is not on record, because the priests made up a story about the disciples stealing His body.
And I believe hell is the place where people burn. Jesus used many illustrations, as did many other writers in the Bible. When it talks about us being refined in the fire as silver is and stuff, I believe it is referring to the trials and tests of faith that will strengthen and grow us and will make us more like the image of God. Do you know how the silversmith knows when to take the silver out of the fire? When he can see his reflection in it.
I’ve enjoyed discussing this with you.
God bless!
Danya <><
Dec. 19, 2006 - In reply to Songwriter's comment:
Posted by thecatholicapologist Songwriter: And I believe hell is the place where people burn. Jesus used many illustrations, as did many other writers in the Bible. When it talks about us being refined in the fire as silver is and stuff, I believe it is referring to the trials and tests of faith that will strengthen and grow us and will make us more like the image of God. Do you know how the silversmith knows when to take the silver out of the fire? When he can see his reflection in it.
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You just made my point even better than I ever could. :) That’s the kind of fire that we believe purgatory is. A refining fire. Like I’ve tried to articulate before (which may not have come across very clearly), even though Christ has saved us from sin, we are still weakened by it. God just doesn’t go *snap* and we’re completely free from temptations and sinful desires. Purification takes time and it even requires pain. I know that God loves me enough as a Father, to cleanse me to perfection.
I love the analogy of God as a potter and us as the clay. God is gradually molding us into the likeness of Himself. That process requires a lot of discomfort for us as the clay. ;) But, the end result is perfect. Purgatory doesn’t undermine Jesus’ redemption. It only highlights it. It’s not through our work or our suffering that we attain heaven. It’s only because of the Potter’s great work that we are made like Him.
Thanks so much, Danya, for taking the time for this discussion. :)
In Christ’s Peace,
~the Catholic apologist
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You just made my point even better than I ever could. :) That’s the kind of fire that we believe purgatory is. A refining fire. Like I’ve tried to articulate before (which may not have come across very clearly), even though Christ has saved us from sin, we are still weakened by it. God just doesn’t go *snap* and we’re completely free from temptations and sinful desires. Purification takes time and it even requires pain. I know that God loves me enough as a Father, to cleanse me to perfection.
I love the analogy of God as a potter and us as the clay. God is gradually molding us into the likeness of Himself. That process requires a lot of discomfort for us as the clay. ;) But, the end result is perfect. Purgatory doesn’t undermine Jesus’ redemption. It only highlights it. It’s not through our work or our suffering that we attain heaven. It’s only because of the Potter’s great work that we are made like Him.
Thanks so much, Danya, for taking the time for this discussion. :)
In Christ’s Peace,
~the Catholic apologist
Dec. 19, 2006 - Untitled Comment
Posted by Songwriter I didn't say that we would be free of sinful desires and temptations.
The "purifying fire" as you called it is what I believe to be an illustration. Many people have different views on it, this just happens to be mine. I believe the purification process will happen on Earth, not in purgatory.
I love that illustration as well of God being the potter. But, I believe He will purify us on Earth, not in purgatory. You know what I believe, I know what you believe. I believe purgatory completely undermines Jesus' great sacrifice for us. I've said all I need to say about that in previous comments.
You know, Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in paradise." The thief didn't do any good works, he had lived his life as a sinner, he wasn't baptized, and all he had was faith. And Jesus told him he would go to paradise that day.
I don't believe this belief about whether purgatory exists or not is necessary for salvation.
Enjoyed debating with you.
Danya <><
The "purifying fire" as you called it is what I believe to be an illustration. Many people have different views on it, this just happens to be mine. I believe the purification process will happen on Earth, not in purgatory.
I love that illustration as well of God being the potter. But, I believe He will purify us on Earth, not in purgatory. You know what I believe, I know what you believe. I believe purgatory completely undermines Jesus' great sacrifice for us. I've said all I need to say about that in previous comments.
You know, Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in paradise." The thief didn't do any good works, he had lived his life as a sinner, he wasn't baptized, and all he had was faith. And Jesus told him he would go to paradise that day.
I don't believe this belief about whether purgatory exists or not is necessary for salvation.
Enjoyed debating with you.
Danya <><
Dec. 19, 2006 - Hello!
Posted by arwengirl Hey! just wanted to come by and comment! Isn't Purgatory a beautiful thing? You know how you can take up something and go with it if it's for that person/thing? Well, I feel that way towards the Poor Souls in Purgatory- I try every day to offer up my sufferings to them, and I pray every now and then, when I feel the need to pray for the Soul closest to Heaven. Also, I pray to stop Abortion. Do you have any particular thing you pray for?
ttyl!
_arwengirl
ttyl!
_arwengirl
Jan. 23, 2007 - Last response to Songwriter
Posted by thecatholicapologist Well, since we’ve already discussed everything I think we’re going to discuss, and we’re starting to go around in circles, I’ll try to tie it in this last comment. :-) Both of us have decided to continue any more discussion through private messaging so that we can move on to debating on all the other posts. ;-) LOL I’ll just try to recap everything that we’ve already said.
~~~~~
Danya: The "purifying fire" as you called it is what I believe to be an illustration. Many people have different views on it, this just happens to be mine. I believe the purification process will happen on Earth, not in purgatory.
~~~~~
I believe that the purification process is partly on earth and is finished in purgatory.
~~~~~
Danya: I believe purgatory completely undermines Jesus' great sacrifice for us. I've said all I need to say about that in previous comments.
~~~~~
I believe that purgatory is a place where Jesus’ great sacrifice for our remission of sins is implemented into our souls over time rather than in an instant.
~~~~~
Danya: You know, Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in paradise." The thief didn't do any good works, he had lived his life as a sinner, he wasn't baptized, and all he had was faith. And Jesus told him he would go to paradise that day.
~~~~~
Let me type out the verse:
Luke 23:43 ~ And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
In the original manuscripts in Greek, there was no punctuation. Neither of the commas in that verse were actually there. They were added by translators at a later time. So I believe Jesus could have been saying, “Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.” It really just depends on how you interpret it.
The way I see purgatory is this. Not everyone has absolute perfect love for God when they die. I think we’d both agree that we’ll all have absolute perfect love for God when we’re in heaven (if not, then that might be another discussion for another time…). That means that God is going to somehow make our love perfect. That leaves two options. Either it is done in an instant, or it is done over time. You hold to one, I hold to the other. We both have our reasons.
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Danya: I don't believe this belief about whether purgatory exists or not is necessary for salvation.
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Well, that’s something we agree on. :-)
Thanks again for the great discussion...if there are any other loose ends we've both agreed to use the direct messaging so that we don't clutter up the cbox too much. ;-) LOL
In Christ,
~the Catholic apologist
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Danya: The "purifying fire" as you called it is what I believe to be an illustration. Many people have different views on it, this just happens to be mine. I believe the purification process will happen on Earth, not in purgatory.
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I believe that the purification process is partly on earth and is finished in purgatory.
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Danya: I believe purgatory completely undermines Jesus' great sacrifice for us. I've said all I need to say about that in previous comments.
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I believe that purgatory is a place where Jesus’ great sacrifice for our remission of sins is implemented into our souls over time rather than in an instant.
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Danya: You know, Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in paradise." The thief didn't do any good works, he had lived his life as a sinner, he wasn't baptized, and all he had was faith. And Jesus told him he would go to paradise that day.
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Let me type out the verse:
Luke 23:43 ~ And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
In the original manuscripts in Greek, there was no punctuation. Neither of the commas in that verse were actually there. They were added by translators at a later time. So I believe Jesus could have been saying, “Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.” It really just depends on how you interpret it.
The way I see purgatory is this. Not everyone has absolute perfect love for God when they die. I think we’d both agree that we’ll all have absolute perfect love for God when we’re in heaven (if not, then that might be another discussion for another time…). That means that God is going to somehow make our love perfect. That leaves two options. Either it is done in an instant, or it is done over time. You hold to one, I hold to the other. We both have our reasons.
~~~~~
Danya: I don't believe this belief about whether purgatory exists or not is necessary for salvation.
~~~~~
Well, that’s something we agree on. :-)
Thanks again for the great discussion...if there are any other loose ends we've both agreed to use the direct messaging so that we don't clutter up the cbox too much. ;-) LOL
In Christ,
~the Catholic apologist
